2006-04-14 05:27:06 MacPhisto: ****
2006-04-14 05:27:15 MacPhisto: Hello Egypt...
2006-04-14 05:27:47 MacPhisto: I was browsing the E! logs reading over what I missed during the day
2006-04-14 05:28:00 MacPhisto: and came across some french posts
2006-04-14 05:28:39 MacPhisto: So I read the translations and quite frankly was a wee bit disturbed
2006-04-14 05:29:02 MacPhisto: I'm going to post the translations here so everybody can read them.
2006-04-14 05:29:40 MacPhisto: "Ever since CT and Kaayru have been elected as Oracles of Leadership, we had a lot of problems I notice that certain people don't appreciate the fact that this monument will be built by the French community, but we are players just like everyone else. It's been 2 years now that I'm playing atitd, and I have made a lot of friends  A lot of friends don't even speak the same language as me, I have a translater that allows me to talk to people, and it works just fine. I regret it that there are people against us for building this monument. I regret seeing to what this stupidity can lead 9 It's a game, where we all should listen to eachother and play together in harmonie. Concerning gaming, who hasn't voted monumental for an art test from their friend ? No one, everyone does it one day or another. The monument of leadership will be constructed at Les Teubay in Cots, wether you like it or not, that's how it will be ..."
2006-04-14 05:29:45 MacPhisto: and...
2006-04-14 05:30:35 MacPhisto: "Hi, in this game we are very close to real life, you favorize your friends, family and neighbours, so why accusing people of gaming, while it's just human nature ? The entire game is based sure that, the help of guildies to progress and making some members make more progress then others. I also help my guildies, the goal is to win, or let other people win (just like in real life) So the 2 first leadership oracles are Kaary and Cardinaltarod, Kaayru will take care of the construction and Cardinaltarod let's us use his 'garden' to build it. And if this doesn't please a certain person, it only takes them to build another monument, I don't think it should be impossible" 
2006-04-14 05:31:39 MacPhisto: If anyone is actually listening, I'll give you a minute to read that before I go on...
2006-04-14 05:35:04 MacPhisto: Everyone read that? good...
2006-04-14 05:37:36 MacPhisto: I don't even know where to begin with my comments on that
2006-04-14 05:39:32 M:Yendor: Those comments are very disturbing to me. Why is it that so many unethical people use "everyone does it" as an excuse?
2006-04-14 05:40:17 MacPhisto: Becaue that is the easiest answer to justify thier actions
2006-04-14 05:43:46 Arrogant attitudes like this are one of the reasons I won't support the leadership monument
2006-04-14 05:45:04 MacPhisto: It has nothing to do with Kaayru being French or CT being French. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about that.
2006-04-14 05:47:36 MacPhisto: I happy for Kaayru. He knows this and he knows my reasons for not being a supporter
2006-04-14 05:47:44 MacPhisto: *I'm
2006-04-14 05:49:10 MacPhisto: But I will not be herded like a sheep being told this is how it will be whether I like it or not
2006-04-14 05:51:03 MacPhisto: And if people believe that everyone games, then I feel sorry for them
2006-04-14 05:51:43 MacPhisto: some of us here do uphold integrity and morals
2006-04-14 05:52:17 MacPhisto: and that's what "leaders" should exemplify
2006-04-14 05:52:56 MacPhisto: leaders should not only be judged based on the leadership discipline, but in everything they do
2006-04-14 05:53:27 MacPhisto: Unfortunately, I'm in the minority on that one
2006-04-14 05:55:07 MacPhisto: for a group of people playing a game where we're supposed to create this "perfect" society
2006-04-14 05:56:16 MacPhisto: I'm shocked that morals and integrity have been pushed aside
2006-04-14 05:57:58 M:singh: perfect? good luck. But what about having a good time insteadt of playing police dog every day ?
2006-04-14 05:57:59 M:singh: I cant help it but to dilike a game where my co-players tell me i dont play by the rules - it's a computer game. the rules are written by whats available to pass the tests ...
2006-04-14 05:58:55 I'm not here telling you what to do
2006-04-14 05:59:25 This is my opinion.
2006-04-14 06:00:31 And how *I* play this game
2006-04-14 06:00:51 M:singh: neither am i. It's just an impression. Consider how new player will think of this discussion. Most are used to set game rules - programmed. so if it's available it might not be popular but still valid
2006-04-14 06:01:54 It's up to us how we want to play. What each of us thinks makes a perfect society.
2006-04-14 06:02:37 M:singh: unless Teppy decides to change the rules !
2006-04-14 06:02:49 M:Yendor: Gaming is a bit hard to define. Am I gaming by signing my own petition? Or if I use donated materials to pass a test? And Cartouche smees to be about nothing but gaming. But on the other hand, I think an effort *should* be made to play fair. And these moral issues ought to be thought through
2006-04-14 06:02:53 some rules are up to us to define for ourselves
2006-04-14 06:04:58 gaming is different for each discipline...
2006-04-14 06:05:26 Cartouche is about getting people to support you and help you pass
2006-04-14 06:05:31 and there are many ways to go about that
2006-04-14 06:06:32 M:singh: well, if they are up to ourselfs, how come we/some fight them soo hard for others as wrong ?
2006-04-14 06:06:33 M:singh: popularity will always be a factor and the once that have it have it easier
2006-04-14 06:07:17 M:singh: not everyones boot but they still enjopy a chance of passing 
2006-04-14 06:07:19 M:singh: test
2006-04-14 06:07:21 F:Deeva: not if the popular make a stand that its not cool, singh
2006-04-14 06:07:22 F:Deeva: thats the responsibility of a leader
2006-04-14 06:07:51 leaders should set an example
2006-04-14 06:09:25 M:singh: soo me bad, i appologize. Can you now please vote on my statue  ...
2006-04-14 06:17:09 M:TpcT: There are a lot of ways to progress in the game that take away from the enjoyment of others.  That's part of what makes this place so special: the ability to choose not to take the easy, goal-oriented, societally destructive path.
2006-04-14 06:20:58 MacPhisto: well.. that's all I feel like saying for now. You may resume your regular programming
2006-04-14 06:21:03 MacPhisto: g'ngiht
2006-04-14 06:24:58 M:singh: just a last word on it ..
2006-04-14 06:25:00 M:singh: ... if you want to change the"possible rules", make your suggestions to Teppy, but dont give people a hard time for usin gthe options available
2006-04-14 06:25:47 M:singh: It's hard to distingueish sometimes why It's gaming in one discipline but not the other
2006-04-14 06:25:58 M:singh: after allwe are not all of the same intellect and i often dont see the difference
2006-04-14 06:26:58 M:singh: applying basic moral standards, like not stealing ofcause is the right thing to do
2006-04-14 06:27:59 M:singh: but how much further can you go ? where is the line between right and wrong ?
2006-04-14 06:28:01 M:singh: and who want's to draw that line? besides Teppy ?
2006-04-14 06:59:11 M:singh: which reminds me ... how about forgiving and forgetting , ... new tale new luck ? or are we carrieing our grievances into Tale3? That would be a sad start !
2006-04-14 06:59:11 M:singh: you know, many of those disputes are just between Elders in a guild ? And the general members dont really care that much unless you start fighting openly ?
2006-04-14 06:59:12 M:singh: so it's still not a quetion of right or wrong but of "ou pissed me of and didnt appologize :" or so
2006-04-14 06:59:12 M:singh: I have done my part of bad, and tried to make it right i think but 
2006-04-14 06:59:14 M:singh: It's just a game 
2006-04-14 06:59:17 M:singh: need to remember that as well
2006-04-14 07:01:39 M:singh: sure we are maybe 1500 players at any given time
2006-04-14 07:01:40 M:singh: but we all need to be flexible in our opinions
2006-04-14 07:01:40 M:singh: we come from all continents
2006-04-14 07:01:40 M:singh: from all countrys
2006-04-14 07:03:26 M:singh: from all aspects off live
2006-04-14 07:03:26 M:singh: intelectuals, workers, and whatever
2006-04-14 07:03:26 M:MacPhisto: and in light of that... you ahve no problems with what was said in the trasnlation I posted?
2006-04-14 07:03:28 M:singh: you try to be better then the rst ofthe world? all together? impossible
2006-04-14 07:03:28 M:singh: but i think we do pretty well
2006-04-14 07:03:28 M:MacPhisto: Which was the only thing I was talking about earlier until you decided to argue about gaming
2006-04-14 07:03:31 M:MacPhisto: completely missing the point of what I was saying
2006-04-14 07:03:31 M:TpcT: Most of us are here to have fun, but not the 'lazy' type of fun you might find in a treadmill-type game.  We have disagreements about how to interact, and it's good that we can criticize ourselves and try to come to general conclusions about who we are as a group.
2006-04-14 07:05:20 M:TpcT: If your style of play is objectionable to someone, it's not wasted effort to try to understand why.
2006-04-14 07:07:22 M:TpcT: The answer "because it's just a game" isn't constructive at all.  It doesn't form any common ground; it doesn't make our society more rich or interesting.
2006-04-14 07:08:12 M:MacPhisto: I'm going to repost that translation one more time, becasu I think that was the more important issue
2006-04-14 07:08:38 MacPhisto: Ever since CT and Kaayru have been elected as Oracles of Leadership, we had a lot of problems I notice that certain people don't appreciate the fact that this monument will be built by the French community, but we are players just like everyone else. It's been 2 years now that I'm playing atitd, and I have made a lot of friends  A lot of friends don't even speak the same language as me, I have a translater that allows me to talk to people, and it works just fine. I regret it that there are people against us for building this monument. I regret seeing to what this stupidity can lead 9 It's a game, where we all should listen to eachother and play together in harmonie. Concerning gaming, who hasn't voted monumental for an art test from their friend ? No one, everyone does it one day or another. The monument of leadership will be constructed at Les Teubay in Cots, wether you like it or not, that's how it will be ...  
2006-04-14 07:08:52 MacPhisto: "Hi, in this game we are very close to real life, you favorize your friends, family and neighbours, so why accusing people of gaming, while it's just human nature ? The entire game is based sure that, the help of guildies to progress and making some members make more progress then others. I also help my guildies, the goal is to win, or let other people win (just like in real life) So the 2 first leadership oracles are Kaary and Cardinaltarod, Kaayru will take care of the construction and Cardinaltarod let's us use his 'garden' to build it. And if this doesn't please a certain person, it only takes them to build another monument, I don't think it should be impossible" 
2006-04-14 07:11:01 MacPhisto: Feel free to read them this time. ;)
2006-04-14 08:45:33 Afrah needs votes on her sculpture! It's at 2325, 2716. Appreciate your time, Egypt.
2006-04-14 15:44:31 Blogmul: I find it sad that the Leadership Monument issue has been turned into an "Everyone against the French comunity" thing.
2006-04-14 15:44:44 Blogmul: I'm a person that has voiced several times that Egypt is too much americanized. eGenesis considers this game to have 3 supported languages. Three supported country comunities. As such, for instance, should either celebrate the 14th July and 3rd October the same way it celebrates the 4th July or celebrate no date at all! It would be fairer and more polite. The same goes for other smaller details that make this "world" feel too much american. Note that I'm not talking about celebrating every represented country national day (my country is out). Just the "supported" countries.
2006-04-14 15:45:01 Blogmul: But it's NOT a french comunity ostracization that is causing all the refusal around the Monument. It's a gaming and cheating issue. Turning it into a "comunity ostracization" political debate will only jeopardize all true efforts to try to make Egypt more "Egyptian".
2006-04-14 15:45:09 Blogmul: So all of you that come from other countries other than USA, UK, France or Germany, take cultural understanding and equality as a need and as a flag we should carry and fight for. But don't mix that with this Monument issue. Using the cultural understanding flag to cover the Monument problem is vile and sickening.
2006-04-14 15:45:17 Blogmul: Leadership Monument problems are related with gaming. Let's not throw sand on the eyes of people. Too much sand was thrown already during this telling, with all the gaming and griefing done. Bottom line is: What message do we want to pass to the next generation? That you can game and get away with it? Or that only fair behaviour is accepted and rewarded?
2006-04-14 16:23:42 M:Zintwana: *******
2006-04-14 16:23:47 M:Zintwana: Can't let that go what MacPhisto just said
2006-04-14 16:23:52 M:Zintwana: THIS IS NOT A RACE ISSUE
2006-04-14 16:23:54 M:Zintwana: THOSE WHO THINK IT IS ARE DELUSIONAL!
2006-04-14 16:23:59 M:Zintwana: grrr I believe the issue is about gaming which is a tricky subject with many views DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A RACE ISSUE DAMN IT!
2006-04-14 16:24:08 M:Zintwana: One very cross Zinty out
2006-04-14 16:24:09 M:Zintwana: ****
2006-04-14 16:24:14 M:Bhoth: 25 more votes needed in the ND level 3 beetle garden--thanks!
2006-04-14 16:25:33 M:Blogmul: Zintwana... MacPhisto was only TRANSLATING something that was said in French on the mic before... Check atitd.net E! logs...
2006-04-14 16:31:58 race does not equal nationality
2006-04-14 16:32:06 race does not equal culture
2006-04-14 16:32:13 race does not equal language
2006-04-14 16:32:23 M:TheMazeEcho: I don't get the point about gaming Leadersip tests... Leadership tests REQUIRE the support of a lot of people (votes, coupons, whatnot...). Every wannabe Leader has to go and get other plyers' support. You can't say that is gaming. If one Leader gets a lot of support, then can't that be BECAUSE he is more able to get that support, be it by cajoling, helping others or trading with them?  If other leaders didn't get as much support, it MIGHT be because either they didn't work hard enough to gather it, or other players think they don't DESERVE it. I have never given to gaming, and if I gave support to a leader, it was because I felt he /she deserved it, by his/her daily actions. Now stop accusing people of gaming without proof. Everybody is innocent until proven guilty, not the reverse !
2006-04-14 16:35:10 some things people should think about: everyone disagrees on what is gaming vs "amoral" ways of passing tests vs good & acceptable ways to pass
2006-04-14 16:35:48 (an example of "amoral" would be bureau seizing which is NOT gaming but considered not acceptable)
2006-04-14 16:36:31 these definitions are very subjective
2006-04-14 16:37:59 subjective things, opinions often vary hugely when crossing a cultural boundary, it is possible these also do.
2006-04-14 16:38:19 as with all subjective things neither side would be wrong, just different
2006-04-14 16:40:34 Teao: switching to main since it seems my comments are not being labeled with my name in the logs
2006-04-14 16:41:03 Teao: things said starting with "race does not equal nationality" till now were me
2006-04-14 16:41:57 M:TheMazeEcho: bureau seizing isn't amoral, it's part of the rules for this test, it's been part of them from the beginning. Politics are dirty, and that reflects it.
2006-04-14 16:41:57 M:TheMazeEcho: you might not like to have your bureau seized, but it's not amoral
2006-04-14 16:43:42 Teao: it is NOT gaming
2006-04-14 16:44:35 Teao: you are seen as a bad person by a large portion of the community if you try to pass by seizing a bureau
2006-04-14 16:44:42 Teao: that is what I mean by amoral
2006-04-14 16:45:03 Teao: but as I said the definitions are subjective
2006-04-14 16:45:08 Teao: everyone will have different ones
2006-04-14 16:46:41 Teao: for example, many people consider buying or forcing new guild initiates to build you a mentor shring gaming. I think it is within the spirit of the test and not gaming. However I think it is an amoral thing to do
2006-04-14 16:49:29 M:TheMazeEcho: I never said seizing a bureau was gaming
2006-04-14 16:49:30 M:TheMazeEcho: then the whole test is amoral
2006-04-14 16:49:34 M:Blogmul: If a leader accepts patronage from a bunch of "old player accounts turned into mules" payed by someone on his guild, doesn't that make the leader immoral and unworthy?
2006-04-14 16:49:35 M:Blogmul: If the "leader" closes his eyes on guildmates downvoting his Thought/Art adversaries so that he passs faster, doesn't that make him a bad leader?
2006-04-14 16:49:36 M:Blogmul: But he is breaking no game rules. He isn't doing anything!
2006-04-14 16:49:36 M:Blogmul: Does that make it right?
2006-04-14 16:51:21 My point is not to discuss any particular test. Just for people to realize that these definitions are highly subjective.
2006-04-14 16:51:48 Teao: ug that was me again for log readers
2006-04-14 16:53:09 Teao: How do people set these definitions in their mind? by what they see happens and by what they are told by other people and by their own personal experience
2006-04-14 16:53:44 Teao: what they are told by other people is obviously limited by language
2006-04-14 16:54:07 Teao: their own personal experience is heavily affected by their RL culture
2006-04-14 16:54:29 Teao: what is acceptable to one maybe awful to another
2006-04-14 16:54:54 Teao: this is not to say they must ignore
2006-04-14 16:55:24 Teao: it is to say they must try to communicate those differences and to listen to such communication from others
2006-04-14 16:56:10 M:Karkajouh: people must understand that even if Egypt is a wannabe perfect society, it is composed of  very normal human beings playing a game with different attitudes, no mater the cultural origin
2006-04-14 16:56:10 M:Karkajouh: all those player ahve legitimate views on life
2006-04-14 16:56:12 M:Karkajouh: and these legitimate views affect their legitimate views on the game
2006-04-14 16:56:44 Teao: The arguments of gaming and amoral pass methods might not be along cultural and language lines, but it is very likely they are
2006-04-14 16:57:00 Teao: exactly karakajouh
2006-04-14 16:57:20 Teao: (btw thanks to who ever is approving the call in comments)
2006-04-14 16:57:54 smiles
2006-04-14 16:58:54 Teao: Another thing people need to think about
2006-04-14 17:00:13 Teao: due to lack of full support from eGenisis, due to language barriers, due to timezone barriers, there are walls between the various language communities
2006-04-14 17:01:25 Teao: Also most people are lazy and if they have no need to go an extra mile they don't
2006-04-14 17:01:57 Teao: This causes the majority groups to often forget/ignore the minority groups
2006-04-14 17:02:26 Teao: not because of malice , just because of laziness
2006-04-14 17:04:30 Teao: so in addition to differenences of opionions and lack of opionions being communicated across the language barrier, which will make language groups appear to be voting together
2006-04-14 17:05:21 M:Cheos: thx Teao for explaining that better than I could
2006-04-14 17:05:22 F:Kerria: If I may inject one thought, many people have a different set of moral values they use just because it is a game.  They feel no real harm comes to others in here so act in ways which go against their real life ideals.
2006-04-14 17:05:25 Teao: these groups often vote in blocks so they can have any affect on a vote like for a law or DP. This is what the laziness of the majority does to them
2006-04-14 17:06:27 Teao: (yes kerria, and that opinion often is heavily along age and maturity levels, a whole different discussion)
2006-04-14 17:07:13 Teao: 2 things happen because of this block voting
2006-04-14 17:07:48 Teao: one is the majority assumes it continues in all voting not just the obvious places like laws and dp
2006-04-14 17:08:13 Teao: two it becomes habit for some and it does happen in other places
2006-04-14 17:09:00 Teao: people are creatures of habit, it is part of our nature
2006-04-14 17:10:17 Teao: The only thing to do is to prevent this from happening in the first place. It is obviously way to late in T2
2006-04-14 17:12:08 Teao: We will soon have a chance to start over and prevent it in T3. The way to do that is not be lazy and to go the extra mile when communicating even if you see little immediate benefit because you are in the majority, even if you think you shouldn't be forced to because you were promised equal access by eGenesis and it was not given
2006-04-14 17:14:30 Teao: Hopefully this will little speach will get people to think some more about the other side.
2006-04-14 17:14:37 Teao: *bounces out*
2006-04-14 17:16:24 M:Karkajouh: yes age and maturity level much more than culture and language
2006-04-14 17:17:05 M:Clovis: Who's the mature person?  The one who treats it as a game, or takes it seriously?
2006-04-14 17:17:23 M:Karkajouh: (this was sent 10 minutes ago, relating to Keria,s comment)
2006-04-14 17:17:55 M:Karkajouh: good question Clovis
2006-04-14 17:19:36 M:Blogmul: Mature is who takes it seriously at least for respect of those who take it seriously too...
2006-04-14 17:24:01 M:Karkajouh: no matter what his or her view on life is