2006-04-07 02:28:07 CrimsonShadow: Hello everyone. 2006-04-07 02:28:29 CrimsonShadow: Trying to finish acrobat and only need 1 facet of BK. 2006-04-07 02:28:49 CrimsonShadow: So if anyone is interested in acro just give me a /chat. 2006-04-07 02:28:50 CrimsonShadow: Thanks 2006-04-07 03:00:34 M:AatonPulonich: Hey Egypt, it's coming around to that time of the week again--Takeskot Sunday! 2006-04-07 03:00:34 M:AatonPulonich: Last week we had our biggest turnout yet, but we're always looking for new people to introduce to the sport. So if you're curious, come on down to Takeskot Dunes this Sunday at 1800 GMT. 2006-04-07 03:33:21 Hasani: Good evening, Egypt. We have a new guild (Architecture Test Discussion Forum) set up for folks to discuss ideas for the T3 Architecture test. The GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. Please come join the guild and bring your grand Architecture ideas!! 2006-04-07 03:35:24 ***************************************************** 2006-04-07 04:20:26 Shelomit: Good evening everyone :) 2006-04-07 04:20:57 bounces 2006-04-07 04:21:06 Shelomit: I am very glad to have our old friend Teao with us tonight. 2006-04-07 04:21:42 Teao: hi everyone! :D 2006-04-07 04:21:43 Shelomit: Welcome back, Teao :) And thank you for coming :) 2006-04-07 04:24:12 Shelomit: What were you expecting before you came back? Anything you see have surprised you? 2006-04-07 04:24:59 I'd come back on a few of the freebie weekends so I'd seen things at various points 2006-04-07 04:25:09 so no big surprises I can think of 2006-04-07 04:30:35 Shelomit: Sorry for the delay. 2006-04-07 04:30:59 Shelomit: What is your goal for this Telling? 2006-04-07 04:31:29 Teao: for T2? my goal is learn/practice the new techs in preperation for T3 :) 2006-04-07 04:31:56 Shelomit: hehe 2006-04-07 04:32:16 Teao: zomboe made the suggestion to people on the forums 2006-04-07 04:32:32 Teao: that you could come learn the new techs now while materials are cheaper 2006-04-07 04:32:39 Teao: I thought that was a good idea :) 2006-04-07 04:33:31 Shelomit: How will you like to play in Tale 3? 2006-04-07 04:34:04 Teao: I'm not sure what you mean. 2006-04-07 04:34:23 Shelomit: Power play or casual? 2006-04-07 04:34:46 Teao: well probably neither :) 2006-04-07 04:34:55 Shelomit: hehe 2006-04-07 04:35:16 Teao: I play to have fun and solve puzzles, do tests 2006-04-07 04:35:58 Teao: I don't do what I'd call powerplay as in trying to be as efficient as possible 2006-04-07 04:36:43 Teao: but when I play an MMO I generally play many hours a nite so I can hardly be called casual 2006-04-07 04:37:29 Teao: but like I have never had a mule character 2006-04-07 04:40:54 Shelomit: Material wealth and the quantity of test psses will not be important to you as to the enjoyment from spending on things that interest you? 2006-04-07 04:41:17 Teao: definitely not material wealth 2006-04-07 04:41:53 Teao: pure quantity of tests no, but I enjoy doing tests but if a test isn't fun I generally don't bother to do it just to get the pass 2006-04-07 04:42:24 Teao: seems odd to me to try an accumulate material wealth with immaterial stuff :) 2006-04-07 04:43:04 Shelomit: Good point. 2006-04-07 04:43:26 Teao: having things in stock to "be prepared" for contingencies and things is one thing, but just trying to accumulate items doesn't sound interesting 2006-04-07 04:44:31 Shelomit: What kind of tests interest you? 2006-04-07 04:45:04 Teao: in T1 my favorite tests were architecture and leadership discipline 2006-04-07 04:45:22 Teao: wasn't fond of most of the body tests 2006-04-07 04:45:38 Shelomit: Yes, I remember you were in the final DP rounds. 2006-04-07 04:46:01 Teao: combat games are fun 2006-04-07 04:46:05 Teao: er conflict 2006-04-07 04:46:40 Shelomit: I know. 2006-04-07 04:46:50 Teao: but there was no real way to "work on" a conflict test other than bumping into the right people 2006-04-07 04:47:37 Teao: I like solving puzzles not creating them so I could never really get into the thought tests 2006-04-07 04:47:51 Shelomit: hehe 2006-04-07 04:48:31 Teao: worship tests weren't really fun in themselves but were fun as doing stuff with a group :) 2006-04-07 04:48:54 Teao: oddly the worship test from T1 I liked the most was visions 2006-04-07 04:49:13 Teao: it had a huge puzzle aspect :) 2006-04-07 04:50:13 Teao: I'm not much of an artist. The only art test I really spend time on was garden 2006-04-07 04:50:31 Shelomit: I remember your garden :) 2006-04-07 04:52:10 Teao: The idea popped into my head and I like it so I did it :) 2006-04-07 04:52:56 Teao: Its more freeform than the others so it lent itself to being done in other ways than how "everyone" does them 2006-04-07 04:54:02 Shelomit: Yes, it was very different and had the feel of wilderness. 2006-04-07 04:57:28 Shelomit: hehe obviously a garden maze could be seen like a red forest :) 2006-04-07 04:58:01 Shelomit: *as 2006-04-07 04:58:55 bounces 2006-04-07 04:59:08 Shelomit: How is Bes? 2006-04-07 04:59:21 Teao: currently dead :) 2006-04-07 05:00:12 Teao: very litte has been said in there for over a month 2006-04-07 05:00:41 Shelomit: I am sorry to hear that. 2006-04-07 05:01:01 Shelomit: Will you start it again in Tale 3? 2006-04-07 05:01:34 Teao: Not I, and if it does restart I don't think I'd make it my home guild again 2006-04-07 05:01:46 Teao: I'd want something smaller 2006-04-07 05:02:30 Teao: got bored faster cause I'd log in to see what new stuff was there since the previous day and the guild would already have 10 of the building 2006-04-07 05:03:01 Shelomit: That's true. 2006-04-07 05:04:36 Shelomit: You are verl cool-headed on the forum and have many insightful posts on the forum. 2006-04-07 05:04:45 Teao: thanks :) 2006-04-07 05:04:46 Shelomit: *very 2006-04-07 05:05:03 Shelomit: (sorry for the awkward expression) 2006-04-07 05:06:16 Shelomit: What issues have you seen as new problems in this telling? 2006-04-07 05:07:29 Teao: well there seem to be more graphic issues as its hard to see all the buildings around near chariot stops 2006-04-07 05:07:54 Teao: the town centers cluster stuff more 2006-04-07 05:09:00 Teao: I really hated the slow pace Teppy set at the beginning of the tale, but his description of T3 having an avalanche of techs in the beginning sounds great to me :) 2006-04-07 05:09:46 Teao: the compounds are odd, I like the buildings themselves but it's hard to find stuff 2006-04-07 05:10:08 Shelomit: It is true. 2006-04-07 05:10:26 Teao: the art and thought buildings that are forced inside are really bad 2006-04-07 05:10:49 Teao: if you run past an art or thought building you probably would stop to look at them 2006-04-07 05:11:03 Teao: but when they are inside a compound you don't know you are running past one 2006-04-07 05:11:44 Teao: oh and a big problem is a lack of shep :) his events were a lot of fun 2006-04-07 05:12:21 Shelomit: heh 2006-04-07 05:13:42 Shelomit: Politics ruins things. 2006-04-07 05:14:05 Teao: well you'd know more about what happen there than me :) I only know the public info :) 2006-04-07 05:14:13 Shelomit: But we willhave more events I am sure. 2006-04-07 05:14:32 Teao: it wasn't the quantity of events 2006-04-07 05:14:37 Teao: it was the depth 2006-04-07 05:14:46 Teao: the stories 2006-04-07 05:16:37 Shelomit: I am sure the depth will not be lacking in the new Tale. 2006-04-07 05:17:18 Teao: well you know whats planned :) I don't :) 2006-04-07 05:17:57 Shelomit: hehe 2006-04-07 05:18:54 Shelomit: I like your forum title :) 2006-04-07 05:18:57 Teao: but it does sound good the part that Teppy describes where an event can be setup ahead of time and triggered by event people without him needing to be there 2006-04-07 05:19:02 Teao: lol 2006-04-07 05:19:17 Teao: I have no idea who gave me that 2006-04-07 05:19:26 Shelomit: hehe 2006-04-07 05:19:41 Teao: but being a monty python fan, it does sound cool to me :) 2006-04-07 05:20:36 Shelomit: Oh, I did not know they are related :) 2006-04-07 05:21:47 Teao: there is a monty python skit, that involves a diner and breakfast and all the choices including spam 2006-04-07 05:21:52 Teao: and more spam 2006-04-07 05:26:26 Shelomit: Regarding the upcoming of End Game Monuments, anything interesting proposals? 2006-04-07 05:27:06 Teao: well I proposed a couple of tests on the forums :) 2006-04-07 05:27:35 Teao: btw you can see the monty python spam skit at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ6N5m8FpVg 2006-04-07 05:29:30 Shelomit: I never felt you were spaming though. Does spam mean the posts vy people whose don't actively play? 2006-04-07 05:30:16 Teao: No but I post a lot :) 2006-04-07 05:31:53 Shelomit: I see :) 2006-04-07 05:32:20 Shelomit: What do you think is true leadership? 2006-04-07 05:34:10 Teao: people who are able to lead others :) Even evil dictators have to have leadership skills 2006-04-07 05:35:22 Teao: there are many styles of leadership, and which you choose to use is often guided by your morals and ethics 2006-04-07 05:35:44 Teao: but they are all "true" 2006-04-07 05:37:45 Shelomit: I was thinking Balthazarr's proposal of the leadership test. 2006-04-07 05:37:48 Teao: in the leadership test I suggest you can choose different ways to "win" depending on your morals and ethics but at the end the choices the winner made would be revealed 2006-04-07 05:38:14 Teao: *quickly goes to look which was Balthazarr's* 2006-04-07 05:38:42 Teao: is it on the forums? cause I don't see it on the wiki 2006-04-07 05:39:00 Shelomit: Yes. The forum 2006-04-07 05:40:22 Teao: ah ok 2006-04-07 05:40:43 Teao: I think the thought is in the right place but the mechanics don't work right 2006-04-07 05:41:06 Shelomit: He emphazed on the differences between the hard working leaders and the leaders who has opionions yet not doing much. 2006-04-07 05:41:09 Teao: One idea I had back in T1 was that mega should be multiple tests 2006-04-07 05:41:53 Shelomit: Oh, interesting, how so? 2006-04-07 05:42:23 Teao: so when a mega was built like 1-3 people might pass a lead test, there would be some way to add artwork to the mega that would result in art passes and then all the rest would be arch passes 2006-04-07 05:42:49 Teao: I like the idea of tests that are a combination that way 2006-04-07 05:43:02 Teao: but most people seem to dislike linking tests that way 2006-04-07 05:44:26 Shelomit: I see. 2006-04-07 05:44:34 Teao: I don't want to comment too much on the test because I don't think it would be right for me to point out problems in this context without Balthazarr being able to rebut them 2006-04-07 05:44:46 Teao: too much on balthazarr's test 2006-04-07 05:45:10 Shelomit: heh 2006-04-07 05:46:14 Teao: arguing and debating is fun :) just ripping someone up when they can't defend isn't 2006-04-07 05:46:38 Shelomit: Good point. 2006-04-07 05:47:31 Shelomit: What was your biggest achievement in Tale 1? 2006-04-07 05:47:59 Teao: having fun :) 2006-04-07 05:48:20 Teao: it is a game :) 2006-04-07 05:51:12 Shelomit: I hope you will continue to have fun in game and on the forum :) 2006-04-07 05:51:25 Teao: me too :) 2006-04-07 05:51:38 Shelomit: Thank you so much for coming, Teao. 2006-04-07 05:51:56 Teao: no problem :) you did ask a long time ago :) 2006-04-07 05:52:13 Shelomit: heh 2006-04-07 05:52:15 Shelomit: I know. 2006-04-07 05:52:30 Shelomit: Thank you for listening everyone. Good night :) 2006-04-07 05:55:53 Teao: nite all 2006-04-07 05:56:00 bounces out 2006-04-07 13:57:37 Hasani: Hello Egypt. We have a new guild (Architecture Test Discussion Forum) set up for folks to discuss ideas for the T3 Architecture test. The GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. Please come join the guild and bring your grand Architecture ideas!! 2006-04-07 13:59:54 F:JemGirl: BODY MONUMENT: Reminder you still have time to vote for your favorite Body Test for next telling. Please check out the Monument Test we are voting on Osyter Catcah and Trials of Contemplation. Chat FaceAnkh with your vote. 2006-04-07 16:53:53 ------ 2006-04-07 16:55:20 kaayru: Hi Egypt :) We'll have Sedelyan with us today to explain her test of Plantation, for the Monument of Leadership. 2006-04-07 16:58:48 Sedelyan: Hi, folks. :) I'm afraid that for the moment we have no callbox, as TpcT is idle; for the moment, we may be unable to take questions unless they're at the microphone. 2006-04-07 16:59:13 kaayru: I can take questions, just chat me, I'll post on E! 2006-04-07 16:59:21 Sedelyan: If any of you want to take part in this discussion 'at the mic', check /info E! for that. Or chat us. :) 2006-04-07 16:59:50 M:FaceAnkh: I can post stuff if people want to talk direct to the mic :) 2006-04-07 17:00:09 Sedelyan: Thanks, FA. :) 2006-04-07 17:01:11 kaayru: Let me remind you we are conducing a poll to chose the test proposal for the Monument of Leadership :) To vote, see /info poll, and chat me your choice :) 2006-04-07 17:03:52 Sedelyan: Okay, so, shall we begin? 2006-04-07 17:04:37 kaayru: Yup :) first, do a *quite* short description of your test :) 2006-04-07 17:06:05 Sedelyan: The test of the Plantation goes like this. A leader sets up a harvest beacon somewhere, in a grassy field. That beacon lets them plant cacao trees; the more cacao seeds they have, the more trees they can plant. When they plant a tree, they designate a harvester. That harvester can collect a seed from a tree every 12 hours, one of 14 of which will be fertile to allow another tree. 2006-04-07 17:06:47 Sedelyan: If a tree is not harvested from in 48 hours, it can be taken by anyone, and another harvester designated. Only the owner, not the harvester, of the tree can collect from it. 2006-04-07 17:07:17 Sedelyan: The owner and harvester cannot be changed until the tree either dies -- 30 RL days from its planting -- or is taken by another player. 2006-04-07 17:07:29 Sedelyan: That's it, mostly; all the remaining eccentricities are in scoring. 2006-04-07 17:09:14 you should add that once the owner gathers the seed, they can be used to cook chocolate :) 2006-04-07 17:10:36 kaayru: Look at E!, a question :) 2006-04-07 17:10:43 kaayru: (oops) 2006-04-07 17:11:13 Sedelyan: Yes; that's one of the plans of the test. 2006-04-07 17:11:25 Sedelyan: I'd initially hoped chocolate would increase the appeal...but it adds to the test itself. :) 2006-04-07 17:12:53 M:FaceAnkh: could you describe the test mechanic a bit? it's about getting a group of harvesters to stay dedicated to you long enough for you to get a good score? 2006-04-07 17:12:55 Sedelyan: Any questions yourself, kaayru? 2006-04-07 17:13:16 (If you have question, just write directly on E!) 2006-04-07 17:13:17 Sedelyan: Ah, there's another. 2006-04-07 17:13:47 Sedelyan: FaceAnkh: Precisely -- and to be sure that your trees don't die off entirely. 2006-04-07 17:14:30 Sedelyan: Cacao trees require a LOT of work. Each one can be expected to provide four seeds for germination, maximum; you can harvest once each 12 hours, the tree dies in 28 days, and one in fourteen gives a fertile seed. 2006-04-07 17:14:59 M:FaceAnkh: is there some restriction to who you can set the harvesters to then? otherwise presumably you'd just need one very dedicated person 2006-04-07 17:15:04 Sedelyan: But points are only collected when the OWNER of the tree picks up seeds. 2006-04-07 17:15:34 Sedelyan: When that happens, they get one point for each normal seed, and seven points for each fertile one; this may need to be tweaked for balance, but I think whatever number I give fertile seeds is fine. 2006-04-07 17:16:25 Sedelyan: Depending on how many people participate, passes may be once a week, twice a week, whatever, once it's mostly set up...but I've provided a mechanic. 2006-04-07 17:16:55 Sedelyan: The first month, NO passes take part. Then, as many tests as normally would occur happen; they were simply queued, similar to hegemony. 2006-04-07 17:17:04 Sedelyan: From there, they proceed as normal. 2006-04-07 17:17:33 Sedelyan: (Sorry for my long-winded explanation here.) Harvesters can be set, per the design of the test, to one through three people. 2006-04-07 17:18:10 Sedelyan: The more people harvesting at once, the less time it takes each. It's a stat-based system. 2006-04-07 17:18:38 Sedelyan: For example, one person may have seven minutes between trees, while another wouuld drop that to five; the third would drop it to three and a half. 2006-04-07 17:19:13 Sedelyan: Additionally, if you have two harvesters, you'll have a chance of getting 2 seeds. 2006-04-07 17:19:25 Sedelyan: If you have three harvesters, you'll have a chance of getting THREE. 2006-04-07 17:19:49 Sedelyan: But the balance applies in this: If you choose more than one harvester, ALL of them must work the tree at once. 2006-04-07 17:20:03 Sedelyan: (You just select the harvesters by name once you plant the tree.) 2006-04-07 17:21:10 kaayru: Why do you think that's a "leadership" test ? 2006-04-07 17:22:04 Sedelyan: The major issue with leadership, in my opinion, is that it revolves around a minimum of effort in terms of reward. A vote is cheap; to find someone willing to help you, at limited or no reward to themselves, is hard. 2006-04-07 17:22:41 Sedelyan: This test revolves around finding a number of people willing to help you get the most points possible, and to trust them. 2006-04-07 17:23:13 Sedelyan: Because of the rarity of cacao trees, and the 'thief' side of the test, that may not be easily attainable. 2006-04-07 17:24:24 Sedelyan: In a way, you both collect and trust; it can be considered a major combination of patronage, trust, and bureaucracy. 2006-04-07 17:25:05 kaayru: bureaucracy ? 2006-04-07 17:25:34 Sedelyan: Bureaucracy, yes. There's a major portion of the test I don't think I mentioned. 2006-04-07 17:25:55 Sedelyan: If a tree is left alone for 48 hours, anyone can take it as their own -- except the previous owner. 2006-04-07 17:26:07 Sedelyan: This includes the harvester chosen for that tree. 2006-04-07 17:26:55 Sedelyan: A new harvester is designated in that situation; if they don't want to choose a harvester, they can kill the tree. 2006-04-07 17:27:10 Sedelyan: And any leftover points are given to the new owner when they pick the seeds up. 2006-04-07 17:28:16 Sedelyan: For a leader that doesn't quite notice, one or two trees could be left to rot for a while, then taken out, slowly working down their field. 2006-04-07 17:29:28 Sedelyan: Any more questions on the design of the test? If not, we can always leave this as a short statement. 2006-04-07 17:30:35 M:TheMazeEcho: when an owner assigns 3 harvesters to a tree, you said they had towork it together to get the seeds, that's to get up to 3 seeds? in other words, if at 1 harvest, only 2 harvesters show up, will they be able to harvest anyway, or is that lost until the 3 one shows up? 2006-04-07 17:31:34 Sedelyan: If you designate three harvesters, ALL THREE must show up to harvest at all. 2006-04-07 17:31:54 Sedelyan: The rewards are obvious, but it becomes more difficult to get them all together in any given day. 2006-04-07 17:33:15 Sedelyan: As I said, too, the harvesters can't be changed. If all three don't pop up for 48 hours, and take from it, it becomes free range. 2006-04-07 17:33:29 Sedelyan: Well, harvest from it, not take. 2006-04-07 17:33:34 M:TheMazeEcho: is the time between harvest based on Teppy time, or RL time? 2006-04-07 17:34:03 Teppytime. 2006-04-07 17:34:34 Sedelyan: That's to prevent them from setting up a *definite* 'best schedule'. 2006-04-07 17:35:36 kaayru: A little note :) Why cacao , I thought it was brought in Europ and Africa by Americans ;) 2006-04-07 17:35:53 M:TheMazeEcho: and to work them at the same time, will they have to do it in like 1 game minute, to adjust for lag? 2006-04-07 17:35:56 Sedelyan: Cacao has a couple reasons, actually. First, everyone loves chocolate. :P 2006-04-07 17:36:08 kaayru: heh 2006-04-07 17:36:33 Sedelyan: Second, the nuts are relatively hard to harvest. That equates to a longer timer. 2006-04-07 17:36:38 M:TheMazeEcho: for chocolate, kaa !! 2006-04-07 17:36:38 M:TheMazeEcho: we need it to bribe Otter 2006-04-07 17:37:18 Sedelyan: Third, it may provide a reason for two points... 2006-04-07 17:37:46 Sedelyan: The cacao had to get here somehow. Could it be a storm? A miracle? A coke bottle falling from the sky? 2006-04-07 17:37:59 Sedelyan: It's just more fodder for events team, which is something I want to see. :) 2006-04-07 17:38:14 kaayru: Good point :) 2006-04-07 17:38:33 Sedelyan: And it explains the RARITY, as each leader only gets one nut to start. 2006-04-07 17:39:30 Sedelyan: I think now's a good time for a 5 minute break, to prepare your questions, folks. 2006-04-07 17:39:52 Sedelyan: Be back in a few mins to discuss more technical -- social, etc. -- aspects of the test. 2006-04-07 17:40:37 kaayru: Ok Sedelyan :) I've to afk a few minutes to (dinner time), be right back :) 2006-04-07 17:41:24 kaayru: You can find more details about the Test of the Plantation on the wiki: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/Sedelyan/The_Test_Of_The_Plantation 2006-04-07 17:41:33 kaayru: Now, afk :) 2006-04-07 17:46:51 Sedelyan: Okay, I'm back. 2006-04-07 17:47:19 Sedelyan: If a team works the trees, it would probably be closer to 1:30, as opposed to the 7 minutes you get for one person working them. 2006-04-07 17:47:36 Sedelyan: That's a team of THREE. A team of 2 would be closer to 4 minutes. 2006-04-07 17:47:55 Sedelyan: They would still only be able to work the trees every 12 hours -- per tree, of course. 2006-04-07 17:48:24 Sedelyan: Sorry for the late response on that, TME. 2006-04-07 17:49:15 Sedelyan: If there are any questions at this junction, please, page/chat them to me (or just /tell). 2006-04-07 17:52:27 Sedelyan: If a group of players discussed a time in which they 'all had to work a tree at once', I could suggest two systems. The first, yes, would be 60 TeppySeconds; the latter would be a 'queue' they could all join to harvest the tree at once, when everyone was ready. 2006-04-07 17:53:39 Sedelyan: Either way, once the whole group harvested that tree, they'd get the minute-and-a-half timer, for three people. 2006-04-07 17:53:45 Sedelyan: Two people probably wouldn't need a queue. 2006-04-07 17:59:02 Sedelyan: Is that it, folks? Well, I imagine you're tested-out. Alright, then. :) 2006-04-07 18:07:29 Okay! Discussion can continue on the forum or wiki; the page is http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Users/Sedelyan/The_Test_Of_The_Plantation . 2006-04-07 18:07:48 Sedelyan: The forum thread is linked to from there. 2006-04-07 18:08:02 Sedelyan: Thanks to all who took part; I can take questions later, if you missed this. Just send them to me. 2006-04-07 18:14:46 Sedelyan: When you're done reading all of this, be sure to place questions and rate/answer them at your local Sphinx! 2006-04-07 18:15:05 Sedelyan: We need Thought players, and this is the best way to do it! 2006-04-07 18:15:45 kaayru: If you posted a question in E!, nobody will valid it (FaceAnkh loged out), so /tell me or Sedelyan :) 2006-04-07 18:15:51 kaayru: And back ;) 2006-04-07 18:16:30 Sedelyan: Right. I'll check E! briefly, just going to run around and look at the Sphinx myself. :) 2006-04-07 18:35:14 kaayru: Well I'm off to Jasmina and Haraleash wedding :) 2006-04-07 18:35:39 kaayru: Everybody is welcome ! It's in RSO 1150 1650, in 25 minutes ! 2006-04-07 18:36:03 kaayru: With wines, beer, host, banquet, fireworks..... the greatest party in Egypt ! 2006-04-07 18:37:02 kaayru: See you there :) and congratz to the newlyweds :) 2006-04-07 20:59:27 F:Sedelyan: Current ibis group: 832, -7948. No, not telling you what region. Learn it yourself, you slackers! ;) 2006-04-07 21:01:31 F:Cappu: Must be UN :o) 2006-04-07 21:03:14 M:Al-Bilal: that's just what he wants you to think ;) 2006-04-07 21:05:20 M:Zatarg: *send me your coupons* 2006-04-07 21:05:38 M:FaceAnkh: hmm, more subliminal messages.. *moss* ;) 2006-04-07 21:36:35 F:Anankha: at least 4 ibis left... *hurry* 2006-04-07 21:58:12 M:TpcT: ART: 5 spots open in the RSO rank-1 beetle garden. :) 2006-04-07 22:31:27 F:Anankha: ND beetle garden needs 3 more votes :-D 2006-04-08 01:02:40 M:FaceAnkh: mOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSs 2006-04-08 01:02:40 M:FaceAnkh: WORSHIP: doobie doobie do 2006-04-08 01:02:41 M:FaceAnkh: as you've probably noticed from the increasing amounts of moss on E!, we're getting desperate for the last two rare mosses for the monument 2006-04-08 01:02:41 M:FaceAnkh: that's fuzzy phosphorescent smelly moss and hairy slimy spotted moss (/info worship moss) 2006-04-08 01:02:41 M:FaceAnkh: if you'd like to help, read on :) 2006-04-08 01:02:42 M:FaceAnkh: the way moss seems to work is that every person has different attributes that they gradually add and remove as they drink 2006-04-08 01:02:42 M:FaceAnkh: so, you might find a tower that says "Calico, Hairy, Striped moss", drink at it, and the moss type might change to "Calico, Striped, Spotted moss" 2006-04-08 01:02:42 M:FaceAnkh: that would mean you remove "hairy" and add "spotted" 2006-04-08 01:02:42 M:FaceAnkh: it normally takes multiple drinks to have an effect, and effects happen gradually 2006-04-08 01:02:43 M:FaceAnkh: you might remove nothing on the first drink, hairy on second, then add spotted on the third 2006-04-08 01:02:43 M:FaceAnkh: the changes will happen instantly - you don't need to harvest the moss to see if it'll change 2006-04-08 01:02:43 M:FaceAnkh: you can also only change a moss once per hour - drinking more often has no effect - it'll say "..and the moss has somehow changed character a bit" when you affect it 2006-04-08 01:02:44 M:FaceAnkh: so that's how we think it works.. 2006-04-08 01:02:44 M:FaceAnkh: what we've been trying to do with that is to find people with particular attributes and try to engineer the mosses we need 2006-04-08 01:02:44 M:FaceAnkh: we've tried to map people's attributes at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Moss_Changes 2006-04-08 01:02:45 M:FaceAnkh: it seems your attributes change over time though (perhaps when the season changed?) or perhaps we don't properly understand how it works 2006-04-08 01:02:45 M:FaceAnkh: between that and the difficulty of finding the right sorts of people, we're running out of time 2006-04-08 01:02:47 M:FaceAnkh: if you can help out by drinking at tower and noting the changes you make on the wiki page (http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Moss_Changes) or chatting to me, that'd be great :) 2006-04-08 01:02:48 M:FaceAnkh: also look out for the rare moss types (see /info worship moss) if you're near an aqueduct and chat Esme or myself if you see one :) 2006-04-08 01:04:51 FaceAnkh: we're also planning to have a moss drinking weekend, where we'll ambush anyone near RSO chariot and drag them to try drinking at the nearby towers in the hopes of lucking out :) 2006-04-08 01:04:52 FaceAnkh: mOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSsmOsSMoSs 2006-04-08 04:29:19 Temm: Hiya Egypt! Shemu is almost here!! Or will end game come first? oooo! Anyway, just wanted to direct your attention to 'yet another leadership test' submission for the monument from this sage. :-) Have a great evening! 2006-04-08 04:30:05 The submission I've posted to the forum: Test of the Followers. :-) There cannot be a leader without followers. :-) 2006-04-08 08:51:48 ********** 2006-04-08 08:51:52 heya Egypt :) 2006-04-08 08:53:20 I'd like to remind you that the vote for choosing which Leadership Test will go into the Monument will end on Sunday. 2006-04-08 08:53:44 I see Temm submitted a new Test, but it's only in the forums... 2006-04-08 08:54:04 I saw that Balthazarr put one there too 2006-04-08 08:54:43 Remember, most voters are only choosing between the Tests that are on the Monument Tests wiki page 2006-04-08 08:54:59 where they also have been translated into other languages 2006-04-08 08:55:40 if you want a chance to have your test proposals studied, please put them in the wiki too, so we can translate them 2006-04-08 08:56:28 the vote is open to every citizen, not only Students of Leadership or higher 2006-04-08 08:56:50 Chat kaayru with your choice of Test :) 2006-04-08 08:57:13 Don't forget, you only have 36 hours left to vote !! 2006-04-08 08:57:17 *********** 2006-04-08 09:17:34 M:Zatarg: *send me your coupons* 2006-04-08 10:22:26 F:Psychodelica: The beacon activity is NOT mining like said before 2006-04-08 10:23:23 F:Psychodelica: the activity is maintaining a compound, doesn't even have to be yours 2006-04-08 10:23:24 F:Psychodelica: so find a compound away from your home that needs a little bit maintenance, add the materials and wait .... 2006-04-08 11:05:46 Dragonix: hi 2006-04-08 11:05:59 hello 2006-04-08 11:06:16 Dragonix: :D can you teacdh me? plz 2006-04-08 11:07:37 Dragonix: ? 2006-04-08 11:08:16 Dragonix: ok... :) 2006-04-08 11:08:20 Dragonix: thx anyway 2006-04-08 11:12:28 Al-Bilal: **** Conflict Monument news **** 2006-04-08 11:12:36 Al-Bilal: The Conflict Monument still needs lots of marble, 49 of each type except Mud, White Trav, Jade, Island Blue and Leopards Paw. 2006-04-08 11:12:58 Al-Bilal: If you have any marble that you'd like to donate (or quarries that you need help working), just chat myself or MacPhisto 2006-04-08 11:13:06 Al-Bilal: Or you could drop donations off directly at the chest farm in LN (841,-3635) 2006-04-08 11:13:16 Al-Bilal: Thanks for listening, Al-Bilal out 2006-04-08 11:13:24 Al-Bilal: **** 2006-04-08 11:21:47 M:kaayru: Hi Egypt :) One day left to vote for your favorite test proposal for the Monument of Leadership ! Check /info poll and chat me your vote ! 2006-04-08 11:23:28 M:kaayru: We should have Teao here today, the designer of the New Test of Trust. 2006-04-08 14:56:24 M:kaayru: Don't forget to vote for the poll to chose the Test of Body for the Monument :) This poll ends on tuesday, so chat FaceAnkh and tell him your vote :) (http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests) 2006-04-08 16:29:02 Hasani: Hello Egypt. We have a new guild (Architecture Test Discussion Forum) set up for folks to discuss ideas for the T3 Architecture test. The GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. Please come join the guild and bring your grand Architecture ideas!! 2006-04-08 16:49:57 kaayru: Hello folks :) 2006-04-08 16:50:18 bounces 2006-04-08 16:50:26 Teao: hi all :) 2006-04-08 16:50:31 kaayru: We are back today with Teao, for the new test of trust :) 2006-04-08 16:51:11 kaayru: Just a little reminder, there is only 1 day before the end of votes ! so /info poll and chat me your favorite test :) 2006-04-08 16:52:33 kaayru: So Teao, could you describe the new test of Trust ? 2006-04-08 16:53:03 Teao: Well its based on the old test of trust and the game Assassin 2006-04-08 16:53:48 Teao: For those who don't know the game Assassin.. 2006-04-08 16:54:30 Teao: To play assassin you need 1 person who isn't really playing to take the names of everyone planing and set up a circle like how secret santa works 2006-04-08 16:55:08 Teao: however the person who's name you get you don't buy them a gift 2006-04-08 16:55:19 Teao: you need to "assassinate" them 2006-04-08 16:56:03 Teao: and sometimes this means throwing a ball of socks at them, shooting a watergun, throwing nerf , that part varies 2006-04-08 16:57:02 Teao: then if you get your target you take their card from them and now have your new target 2006-04-08 16:57:42 Teao: this keeps going till there is 1 person left who is the winner, they know they won when the person they just got gives them a card with their own name on it 2006-04-08 16:58:12 Teao: its a really fun game. and I've wondered a long time how to do it online 2006-04-08 16:58:41 Teao: the problem of course is with an online game the best strategy would be to just no log in till there are very few people left 2006-04-08 16:59:17 Teao: So I finally realized what you need to do is make the target something other than the player itself 2006-04-08 16:59:47 Teao: This is when I thought of combining it with the old test of trust 2006-04-08 16:59:54 Teao: the target would be your vault. 2006-04-08 17:00:16 Teao: but itstead of sneaking around to catch your target 2006-04-08 17:00:30 Teao: and instead of your target sneaking around to try an avoid you 2006-04-08 17:00:41 Teao: its don't via trust 2006-04-08 17:01:01 Teao: the way to assinate someone is to get their combination 2006-04-08 17:01:41 Teao: and the way to defend is to choose good people to guard that combination 2006-04-08 17:03:03 Teao: the target in fact is a cermonial coin in the vault 2006-04-08 17:03:39 Teao: so fitting with the leadership discipline, you can do things an evil way or the moral way 2006-04-08 17:03:58 Teao: you can try to get someones coin by getting their combo and stealing it 2006-04-08 17:04:04 Teao: or you can just ask them for it 2006-04-08 17:05:28 Teao: which ever mechanism is chosen it scores the same, but at the end the round will reveal only for the winner how many coins they got of each type 2006-04-08 17:06:03 Teao: thats the basic gist of the test, there are some other rules to make it stay competitive and to make it not just stalemate 2006-04-08 17:06:14 Teao: questions? 2006-04-08 17:06:37 kaayru: You can write your questions directly on E!. 2006-04-08 17:06:40 M:Yendor: What if someone is lucky and their first target has their name? 2006-04-08 17:07:09 they should never get their own target, it needs to be set up as one complete circle 2006-04-08 17:07:19 they only get their name if they've won and no one is left 2006-04-08 17:07:32 M:Al-Bilal: how long is a round? 2006-04-08 17:08:33 my suggestion was a week, with targets being reset at certain points in the middle. but the length of time is obviously one of the tweakable parts 2006-04-08 17:09:24 one difference between assassin and this test is that in assassin the targets never change 2006-04-08 17:09:46 here you could get stuck with someone who happens to go on vacation for a week 2006-04-08 17:10:16 so to avoid that, during the round you have a limited amount of time to get your target 2006-04-08 17:10:31 and then everyone who lived through the mini-cycle gets a new target 2006-04-08 17:11:12 so my suggesion was 5 daily minicycles as part of the week long round, but again those numbers are tweakable 2006-04-08 17:11:53 kaayru: Any questions/feedbacks ? 2006-04-08 17:12:20 M:Yendor: You could make it so that you are eliminated by being killed OR by not killing anyone 2006-04-08 17:13:13 that wouldn't work, it would knock out the people who didn't log in, but it would also knock out the people who had them as a target 2006-04-08 17:13:26 and I don't want it to be a requirement that you MUST log in everyday 2006-04-08 17:14:58 dedenav: bisous kaayru 2006-04-08 17:15:16 kaayru: Why do you think that's a good test for Leadership ? 2006-04-08 17:15:55 Teao: so it has a lot of different aspects for that 2006-04-08 17:16:07 Teao: for one it has the basic "Get someone to do something aspect" 2006-04-08 17:16:46 Teao: if you do things the "evil" way you have to get one of the trustees (unless you happen to be that person's trustee) to give you the combination/coin 2006-04-08 17:18:07 Teao: if you do things the "morale" way you have to get your target to approve their coin and give it to you 2006-04-08 17:18:47 Teao: as the original test of trust, it tests a particular leadership skill, the skill of choosing who you can trust 2006-04-08 17:19:35 Teao: good leadership tests, have the "get someone to do something" and some other leadership skill involved 2006-04-08 17:19:57 Teao: (e.g. bureau - organization skills) 2006-04-08 17:20:33 Teao: and as many of the leadership tests, it tests the morales of the players 2006-04-08 17:20:45 Teao: they can do things a morale way or an evil way 2006-04-08 17:22:14 Teao: and I like having it tell us at the end the persons "score" in that respect 2006-04-08 17:22:48 Teao: and with any test of any discipline it should be fun 2006-04-08 17:23:20 Teao: and I know assassin is a lot of fun, and I hope this keeps that fun the way I set it up 2006-04-08 17:23:43 kaayru: any questions ? 2006-04-08 17:23:56 kaayru: (type in E!) 2006-04-08 17:29:29 kaayru: Ok, Could you explain the differences between the new and old tests of Trust ? 2006-04-08 17:29:47 Teao: The old test of trust was very simple 2006-04-08 17:30:45 Teao: you built this vault, put the required expensive stuff inside, found people you trust (with some rules on who), and then waited out the week 2006-04-08 17:30:49 Teao: or two weeks I forget 2006-04-08 17:31:59 Teao: but like most things in egypt, nothing is that valuble. The stuff rarely if ever tempted someone to steal it 2006-04-08 17:32:44 Teao: the cases where people failed were usually cause someone wanted to prevent them from passing 2006-04-08 17:32:47 M:Yendor: That's because TitD players are trustworth 2006-04-08 17:32:52 M:Yendor: err trustworthy 2006-04-08 17:33:06 Teao: at least thats my opinon 2006-04-08 17:33:14 Teao: all in all it was rare for stuff to get stolen 2006-04-08 17:33:43 Teao: the other thing was you couldn't pick just anyone for a trustee 2006-04-08 17:34:12 Teao: in the old test of trust, you needed to pick people who were a high rank of leadership 2006-04-08 17:34:39 Teao: of course these were generally the more trustworthy people in egypt 2006-04-08 17:34:53 M:Yendor: Be man --- make them pick initiates 2006-04-08 17:35:12 Teao: so people would basically blindly choose people 2006-04-08 17:35:16 Teao: and still pass 2006-04-08 17:35:59 Teao: in the new test, the only requirement to be a trustee is to also be registered for the test 2006-04-08 17:36:29 Teao: you need to let people have the option to choose bad people 2006-04-08 17:37:20 Teao: and the "Evil" part of stealing stuff didn't help you in the test at all 2006-04-08 17:37:33 Teao: so it wasn't very tempting 2006-04-08 17:37:51 Teao: here stealing will help you towards passing 2006-04-08 17:38:36 kaayru: Do the trustees get any rewards if they give the combination to someone ? 2006-04-08 17:39:35 Teao: not directly in the new test, but they are all participants in the test 2006-04-08 17:39:53 Teao: so obviously someone could try to tempt them with stuff/favors out side the test 2006-04-08 17:40:07 Teao: or they could be trading combos if they each have the others targt 2006-04-08 17:40:35 Teao: you can by chance get as a target, someone you have trusteed for that of course would be direct benefit 2006-04-08 17:40:55 Teao: and lastly everytime someone is "killed" that is one less competitor 2006-04-08 17:41:43 Teao: the current top X should be listed at a Ulead during the round 2006-04-08 17:42:18 Teao: so if you are a trustee for someone who is ahead of you , even if you don't have them as a target you could take them out by opening their vault 2006-04-08 17:42:31 Teao: but you wouldn't get a point for it 2006-04-08 17:46:20 kaayru: Anymore questions ? :) 2006-04-08 17:50:02 well if anyone reads this later they can certainly chat me questions or put their questions on the forums 2006-04-08 17:52:16 kaayru: Well :) You can find more information about the New Test of Trust here: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests 2006-04-08 17:53:12 kaayru: Have a good day every one :) Bye :) 2006-04-08 17:53:31 waves 2006-04-08 17:53:36 bounces out 2006-04-08 17:53:57 ------ 2006-04-08 20:07:30 JemGirl: REMINDER: BODY MONUMENT TEST up for vote please chat FaceAnkh with your vote 2006-04-08 20:08:03 JemGirl: We got 2 Oyster Catch and Trails of Contaplation 2006-04-08 20:08:22 JemGirl: You can find details on the Monument Test page on wiki 2006-04-08 20:50:13 F:JemGirl: Also If you had applied before I torn down the site you have to come up again and reapply or if you still do please do so we want to get you guys in beofre the build on the 15th 2006-04-08 20:50:14 F:JemGirl: Coords 1375 715 2006-04-08 21:28:50 M:Sebak: this is an unsolicited advertisment. i've been listening to radio phoenix since noon. they are playing some very good music. you should check them out... :) 2006-04-09 00:13:09 F:Anankha: ~**~ SPAM ~**~ Come see one of the wonders of Egypt! The Spurtling Obelisk Fountain! 1135, -2725 in LN north of the CS on East bank. It gurgles, it spurtles, and is pretty darn nice to look at! ~**~ END SPAM ~**~ 2006-04-09 00:18:15 Shelomit: Good evening everyone :) 2006-04-09 00:18:36 Shelomit: I am honored to have JemGirl with us tonight. 2006-04-09 00:19:40 JemGirl: Hey guys 2006-04-09 00:19:49 JemGirl: I am happy to be here tongiht 2006-04-09 00:21:58 Shelomit: You have had significant contributions to the Worship Festivals. 2006-04-09 00:22:47 Shelomit: In both tellings. 2006-04-09 00:23:08 JemGirl: Yes and its been great doing them and helping others to pass 2006-04-09 00:26:41 Shelomit: It must have been stressful sometimes. 2006-04-09 00:27:43 JemGirl: At times it was cause you could never make people happy esp with the times 2006-04-09 00:28:11 JemGirl: That is what happen last telling and this telling it was not bad but no one was satisfied 2006-04-09 00:28:53 Shelomit: How large a crowd is usually required for a festival? 2006-04-09 00:28:53 JemGirl: I tried the best I can. 2006-04-09 00:29:12 JemGirl: we need at least 10 to make a successful festival 2006-04-09 00:29:45 JemGirl: but this telling every knew not to miss the first one 2006-04-09 00:30:05 Shelomit: Why? 2006-04-09 00:30:15 JemGirl: so once that was done people didn't do anymore so it was hard to get others passed esp in the end 2006-04-09 00:31:26 Shelomit: I see. 2006-04-09 00:32:05 JemGirl: This telling i have to say its been hard esp since I am back in school 2006-04-09 00:32:31 JemGirl: but thank god for Balt and some others when they did help 2006-04-09 00:33:14 Shelomit: How do you usually decide when to run a destival? What do you do to get prepared? 2006-04-09 00:33:47 JemGirl: This telling that was hard we only did once at a time good for all. Last telling we did it 3 times a week 2006-04-09 00:34:19 JemGirl: The suppliers that helped with festivals were a great assent 2006-04-09 00:34:38 JemGirl: and of course the Prisim crew who continued to help even after they passed 2006-04-09 00:35:57 JemGirl: Preparing was easy if people can do the stuff the themselves but most had to chat other players to get there req 2006-04-09 00:36:19 JemGirl: in the end Ihave to say Maat was the hardest one to accomplish 2006-04-09 00:36:26 JemGirl: but we did get that done 2006-04-09 00:37:11 Shelomit: This discipline really builds up friendship :) 2006-04-09 00:38:03 JemGirl: Yes it does and though I have been thinking of not coming back next telling many are very sadden by this 2006-04-09 00:38:22 JemGirl: I have recently gotten chats about why I am not coming back 2006-04-09 00:38:49 JemGirl: but due to Mommouse I have decided to come back in a low key mode, but I will not be doing Festivals next telling 2006-04-09 00:39:41 Shelomit: It will be great to have you around. 2006-04-09 00:39:48 JemGirl: I will be taking at least a 2 month hiatus though so I can get some stuff in RL done 2006-04-09 00:40:32 Shelomit: I understand. 2006-04-09 00:41:49 Shelomit: You are also an Oracle of Body - is it hard to accomplish two Oracles with so much time devoted to the festivals? 2006-04-09 00:43:12 JemGirl: not at all. Last telling I did the mic while I was doing my running and when I wasn't I was able to take the time 2006-04-09 00:43:46 JemGirl: and chatting people was the best way to get others there req for them 2006-04-09 00:44:07 JemGirl: and they chatted me or looked at wiki 2006-04-09 00:45:10 JemGirl: I think the stress part was the day and making sure everyone was present was the worst part 2006-04-09 00:45:26 JemGirl: and helped when they were not ready at last min 2006-04-09 00:45:31 JemGirl: that was really rough 2006-04-09 00:48:19 Shelomit: When is usually a good time to set up the festival? 2006-04-09 00:48:39 JemGirl: WE found Sat at 3pm est or edt 2006-04-09 00:48:45 JemGirl: for this telling 2006-04-09 00:50:43 Shelomit: How do you like the tests in Body? 2006-04-09 00:50:54 Shelomit: Which ones did you enjoy? 2006-04-09 00:52:03 JemGirl: I guess I would say doing Maat and Bastet I liked 2006-04-09 00:54:01 Shelomit: Why? 2006-04-09 00:54:48 JemGirl: The flowers I liked how we had to breed to get the right kinds and in Bastet I loved the ribbons 2006-04-09 00:58:18 JemGirl: Oh In Body I liked Cicada and I have say Safari though it was rough finding stuff was quite a challenge 2006-04-09 00:59:06 Shelomit: Any tricks with finding cicadas? 2006-04-09 01:00:11 JemGirl: you just have to hide them really good and usually the flat desert is the best 2006-04-09 01:01:57 Shelomit: You have been in the DP final round multiple times. 2006-04-09 01:02:33 Shelomit: Losing to CardinalTarod by 3 votes must be hard on you. 2006-04-09 01:02:36 JemGirl: I have only been it I think 3 times 2006-04-09 01:03:15 JemGirl: Yeh it was hard on me 2006-04-09 01:03:54 JemGirl: and I wish it was not that close 2006-04-09 01:06:58 Shelomit: What made the difference in the 3 votes? 2006-04-09 01:08:11 JemGirl: I guess he had more support than I did, but I still consider myself a winner in some ways 2006-04-09 01:10:28 JemGirl: I guess I learned that leadership is not my thing really after DP 2006-04-09 01:13:36 Shelomit: Do you think DP is the ultimate test for one's leadership ability? 2006-04-09 01:15:40 JemGirl: I would have to say yes and you learn alot from it too 2006-04-09 01:16:37 Shelomit: How so? 2006-04-09 01:18:06 JemGirl: I just learned that its hard to do this test cause people in some way get hurt but others esp in Cartouche and in DP 2006-04-09 01:18:53 JemGirl: I just feel that many people need to be strong to handle these kinds of test 2006-04-09 01:19:24 JemGirl: I am not that kind of person and I have to admit been hurt by them 2006-04-09 01:20:35 Shelomit: You are very sincere person. 2006-04-09 01:20:57 Shelomit: That takes courage to be so. 2006-04-09 01:21:06 JemGirl: Thanks 2006-04-09 01:21:21 JemGirl: I wish I could be other way but that is not my style 2006-04-09 01:21:57 JemGirl: I guess that is why my RL needs to come first now cause my job put me through alot that I need to put to rest 2006-04-09 01:22:18 JemGirl: though this game helped me 2006-04-09 01:22:46 JemGirl: its time I get back to my RL 2006-04-09 01:23:00 JemGirl: and start doing for myself again 2006-04-09 01:23:52 JemGirl: I have kinda been battling depression lately, so that is why I have decided I need a break 2006-04-09 01:24:47 Shelomit: hugs 2006-04-09 01:25:19 Shelomit: I wish I could give you a real hug and be of some comfort. 2006-04-09 01:25:46 JemGirl: Well hopefully we will get together again at the Player Meet 2006-04-09 01:26:05 JemGirl: Though I am going to Alaska the end of June 2006-04-09 01:26:35 Shelomit: That will be good. 2006-04-09 01:27:08 Shelomit: I know that many of your friends from Tale 1 have left. 2006-04-09 01:27:53 JemGirl: Yes they have Nomad, Casino, Wojcik, and Kurtdevious have been long friends even prior to these games 2006-04-09 01:28:08 JemGirl: I still keep in touch with Wojcik and have met him 2006-04-09 01:28:27 JemGirl: Cas has everyone knew him I have been emailing 2006-04-09 01:28:44 JemGirl: and Kurt has been in game from time to time to surprise me 2006-04-09 01:29:05 JemGirl: Nomad unfortunitly has been MIA since Christmas 2006-04-09 01:29:12 JemGirl: and I have missed him alot 2006-04-09 01:29:24 Shelomit: Me too. 2006-04-09 01:29:30 JemGirl: Idnic I do have her phone number but has yet to talk to lately but going to try again soon 2006-04-09 01:30:51 Shelomit: She is a great artist. 2006-04-09 01:31:00 JemGirl: yes she is 2006-04-09 01:32:14 JemGirl: I am thinking that due to Nomie not talking to her that is why she hasn't been around on ICQ or called me back when I left message 2006-04-09 01:32:32 JemGirl: but I will try again 2006-04-09 01:33:12 Shelomit: I hope she is fine. 2006-04-09 01:33:30 Shelomit: They were all great players. 2006-04-09 01:33:41 JemGirl: They sure was 2006-04-09 01:34:03 Shelomit: A friend here is a friend for life. 2006-04-09 01:34:20 JemGirl: They sure are adn I am glad to have them all 2006-04-09 01:34:37 JemGirl: but me meeting those guys happened in a interesting way 2006-04-09 01:35:06 Shelomit: Oh. 2006-04-09 01:35:23 JemGirl: Yeh we met in a place called Collective Detectives 2006-04-09 01:35:37 Shelomit: A game? 2006-04-09 01:35:43 JemGirl: Its a place that people do computer puzzles and try to solve it 2006-04-09 01:36:02 JemGirl: its like a chat room and forum 2006-04-09 01:36:17 JemGirl: In fact they are still there 2006-04-09 01:36:46 JemGirl: but at the time when the TV Show Push Nevada was playing there was a contest 2006-04-09 01:36:52 JemGirl: to solve the puzzle 2006-04-09 01:37:01 JemGirl: for a million 2006-04-09 01:37:13 Shelomit: heh 2006-04-09 01:37:19 JemGirl: we all went in a chat room every night to watch to do this 2006-04-09 01:37:49 JemGirl: This show was written by Ben Afflick and his friend Matt Damon 2006-04-09 01:38:03 JemGirl: so you see it was a starnge way of meeting 2006-04-09 01:38:12 JemGirl: than they all went to play here and than got me here 2006-04-09 01:39:13 at first I didn't like it until woj and cas took me around 2006-04-09 01:39:19 I was going to quit 2006-04-09 01:39:43 Shelomit: I heard someone saying that computer games make one smart. 2006-04-09 01:40:01 JemGirl: I learned alot about computers from my friends 2006-04-09 01:40:13 JemGirl: not sure it made me smart 2006-04-09 01:40:33 Shelomit: Happier? 2006-04-09 01:40:43 JemGirl: I never really got into trying to figure stuff out but if I work with Mommouse on her flowers I thought it would be interesting 2006-04-09 01:41:04 JemGirl: Happier in a way 2006-04-09 01:41:40 Shelomit: With a price? 2006-04-09 01:42:01 JemGirl: no price 2006-04-09 01:42:07 JemGirl: I just met some great people I feel 2006-04-09 01:42:12 JemGirl: adn wouldn't change a thing 2006-04-09 01:42:31 Shelomit: nods. 2006-04-09 01:44:30 Shelomit: Which Telling do you like better? 2006-04-09 01:44:49 JemGirl: I would definitely say I liked Tale 1 2006-04-09 01:45:06 JemGirl: Since tale 2 had some new things it was repetitous 2006-04-09 01:45:11 JemGirl: and now I feel burned out 2006-04-09 01:46:34 Shelomit: You played differently as well? 2006-04-09 01:47:20 JemGirl: In some ways yes but I was Oracle of body and worship last telling 2006-04-09 01:47:31 JemGirl: I guess leadership was new to me 2006-04-09 01:48:51 Shelomit: How do you feel about the communities in both Tellings? 2006-04-09 01:49:29 JemGirl: I have to say they different 2006-04-09 01:49:41 JemGirl: but in same in ways 2006-04-09 01:49:50 JemGirl: there was more community things going on 2006-04-09 01:49:58 JemGirl: helping others in this telling mre 2006-04-09 01:51:54 Shelomit: Do you feel the advantage of being a Tale 1 player? 2006-04-09 01:52:08 JemGirl: Oh definitely 2006-04-09 01:52:31 JemGirl: due to we knew how what to expect in some of the same test 2006-04-09 01:52:59 Shelomit: Thank you very much for coming, Jem. 2006-04-09 01:53:08 Shelomit: Please take care. 2006-04-09 01:53:18 JemGirl: YW Shelomit it was great being here 2006-04-09 01:53:30 JemGirl: I hope to see you again soon in RL 2006-04-09 01:53:38 JemGirl: hugs to you and your family 2006-04-09 01:53:54 Shelomit: Hugs to you too. 2006-04-09 01:53:58 JemGirl: and goodnight Egypt this is your 102.7 DJ for Festivals signing off 2006-04-09 01:54:06 JemGirl: Night all 2006-04-09 01:54:09 Shelomit: :) 2006-04-09 01:54:26 Shelomit: Thank you for listening everyone, good night :) 2006-04-09 02:14:00 M:Bhoth: ND Level 3 beetle garden open for judging! 2006-04-09 02:14:09 M:Reyzer: For some relaxiation and escape from the stress of passing tests, please visit my garden. I promise a time of tranquilty in the natural springs. Just by ND cs 2006-04-09 02:14:51 F:Esme: Free Lemonade at RSO cs ..come have a cool drink while shopping!!! 2006-04-09 02:50:48 FaceAnkh: -------------------- 2006-04-09 02:51:18 FaceAnkh: hi Egypt :) 2006-04-09 02:52:16 bounces in 2006-04-09 02:52:19 Teao: hi all 2006-04-09 02:52:29 FaceAnkh: Teao or I managed to drag the other to the mic to chat briefly about his Worship test proposal - the Test of Transcendental Transferrence 2006-04-09 02:52:58 FaceAnkh: (not Transcendental Toffee as I called it the other week - I think I must've drunk the wrong sort of aqueduct water :S) 2006-04-09 02:53:21 FaceAnkh: anyway, Teao's going to give us a brief overview of his test 2006-04-09 02:53:24 Teao: well it needs a better name anyway :) 2006-04-09 02:53:36 FaceAnkh: if you have any questions, please send them to me directly via /tell 2006-04-09 02:53:51 FaceAnkh: (I've managed to break my messageboard until TpcT gets back, so can't post comments ;p) 2006-04-09 02:54:33 Teao: so the point was to think of a way to have a test for worship that could involve lots of people , numbers like we get for festivals but not have the issue of everyone getting on at the same time 2006-04-09 02:54:47 Teao: cause that always is a problem for people in different timezones 2006-04-09 02:55:38 Teao: so I thought of something like a relay race 2006-04-09 02:55:55 Teao: or more like the olympic torch 2006-04-09 02:56:33 Teao: so here is the basic way it works 2006-04-09 02:57:13 Teao: a person starts a chain doing a special ritual 2006-04-09 02:57:38 Teao: oh wait I need to back up a bit first 2006-04-09 02:58:22 Teao: to participate people need to goto an altar and do a small ritual to find out their special location 2006-04-09 02:58:36 Teao: sort of like how they find out their festival materials 2006-04-09 02:59:14 Teao: so everyone gets their own random location in egypt each cycle 2006-04-09 02:59:42 Teao: now 1 person needs to start the chain 2006-04-09 03:01:07 Teao: when someone goes to their special location they can summon an altar just like the beacon appearing altar 2006-04-09 03:01:28 Teao: so the starting person goes to their location with a few extra people and does a ritual to start the chain 2006-04-09 03:02:21 Teao: those people don't count as having participated so they can take part later in the chain also 2006-04-09 03:02:53 Teao: now the first person needs to meet who ever he's going to pass the torch to at that person's location 2006-04-09 03:03:29 Teao: at the 2nd person's location, the 2nd person summons an altar and the two people do a ritual which results in the 2nd person holding the torch 2006-04-09 03:04:21 Teao: now the 2nd person goes to meet the third at their location, repeat 2006-04-09 03:04:43 Teao: now there is no time limit on how long to get to the next person 2006-04-09 03:04:58 Teao: you could go right away or in a few hours 2006-04-09 03:05:13 Teao: the only limit is the weekly cycle 2006-04-09 03:06:00 Teao: when the cycle is over, whichever chain is the largest during that cycle passes/gets credit 2006-04-09 03:06:15 Teao: depending on how difficult you want to make it you can simply have the largest chain pass 2006-04-09 03:06:41 Teao: or you can have them get a score like in festivals so if there were 20 people in the chain you get 20% 2006-04-09 03:07:18 Teao: also you might want a minimum length to get any credit so people can't just pass with 1 person when the telling gets to the end 2006-04-09 03:08:18 Teao: also you might want there to be some kind of stat bonus people get when they give away the torch, this might keep people doing it even if they've passed, and hence keep it semicompetitive as the telling winds on 2006-04-09 03:09:03 Teao: so thats the basic stuff, lots of it is tweakable. For example you could have each ritual use up a resource if you wanted. 2006-04-09 03:09:40 Teao: you could have it work where you have to do it for different gods using different resources like in festivals 2006-04-09 03:09:49 Teao: there are a lot of ways to tweak this mechanism 2006-04-09 03:10:11 Teao: but the main point is to not require everyone on at the same moment in time 2006-04-09 03:10:16 Teao: any questions? 2006-04-09 03:10:47 FaceAnkh: one of the ones that was asked last week was whether the chains reset at the end of each weekly cycle or just keep getting bigger? 2006-04-09 03:11:19 Teao: they reset 2006-04-09 03:11:32 Teao: people can't be part of more than one chain at a time 2006-04-09 03:11:39 Teao: so its important for them to reset 2006-04-09 03:12:22 FaceAnkh: what's your feeling for how well it would last too? one can imagine that people might form up a huge chain that passes most of Egypt in a week 2006-04-09 03:13:30 Teao: thats why it might make sense to have people have to do it multiple times for different gods like in festivals 2006-04-09 03:13:56 FaceAnkh: nod, that would probably fix it :) 2006-04-09 03:14:13 Teao: do note if they do organize things well enough to form the huge chain taht will have been a lot of work 2006-04-09 03:14:29 Teao: so they might deserve to get a lot of credit :) 2006-04-09 03:14:51 FaceAnkh: yup, it would probably be worth the reward - could even tie points to chain length in a non-linear way, I guess 2006-04-09 03:15:36 FaceAnkh: it might go a bit like bureaucracies too - a couple of big competitions in the first few tries, then settling to one or two big ones going turn by turn 2006-04-09 03:16:12 FaceAnkh: just wondering if maybe there's an optimum chain size for fun :) 2006-04-09 03:16:45 Teao: do remember the location each person will get will be somewhere random in egypt 2006-04-09 03:17:10 Teao: though that location will change each cycle 2006-04-09 03:17:30 FaceAnkh: oh true, I guess that would limit chain size :) 2006-04-09 03:17:48 Teao: but some people will have "bad" spots each cycle, way far away 2006-04-09 03:18:44 FaceAnkh: any other questions out there - please send me a /tell if so (direct E! comments won't work atm) 2006-04-09 03:20:01 FaceAnkh: *skips Deeva's distinctly non-worshippy question* ;) 2006-04-09 03:20:29 FaceAnkh: Khleevi says: You might make the locations 'fuzzy' so that if the system gives you an inaccessible spot, you're not outta luck. 2006-04-09 03:20:41 Teao: oh thats a good point 2006-04-09 03:20:53 Teao: its one thing if its out of the way 2006-04-09 03:20:58 Teao: its another if its inaccessible 2006-04-09 03:21:11 Teao: so yes it should have some kind of buffer like that 2006-04-09 03:21:26 Teao: very good idea 2006-04-09 03:21:46 FaceAnkh: another way to do that might be to have several possible spots - give people the chance to choose as well as protecting from impossible places 2006-04-09 03:22:28 Teao: nod 2006-04-09 03:23:03 FaceAnkh: I like the term torch better than twig too ;) 2006-04-09 03:23:20 Teao: I thought of that today :) 2006-04-09 03:24:17 FaceAnkh: *shakes the E! mic to see if any more tells pop out, or if we're done* 2006-04-09 03:25:05 FaceAnkh: Khleevi: I vote for increasing scores, as in festivals. 2006-04-09 03:25:21 Teao: oh one special rule is if your name is 5 letters long and contains the letters aeedv then your location will always be inaccessible 2006-04-09 03:25:31 FaceAnkh: lol 2006-04-09 03:27:19 FaceAnkh: no objections voiced to that rule so far ;) 2006-04-09 03:28:15 FaceAnkh: ok, guess we're all done then :) 2006-04-09 03:28:26 FaceAnkh: thanks for coming and chatting Teao :) 2006-04-09 03:28:41 Teao: anytime :) 2006-04-09 03:28:53 FaceAnkh: and thanks for that fix, Khleevi - well spotted :) 2006-04-09 03:29:06 slips some cheese into Faceankh's back pocket 2006-04-09 03:29:26 Teao: later all 2006-04-09 03:29:33 bounces out 2006-04-09 03:29:47 FaceAnkh: while I'm worshipping around here, I'll fling in the usual plea to drink at aqueduct towers when you're passing one - "/info worship moss" for the moss types we need 2006-04-09 03:30:15 FaceAnkh: also, watch out at RSO cs, we've been ambushing people waiting for chariots and dunking them :) 2006-04-09 03:30:19 FaceAnkh: ------------------ 2006-04-09 03:31:57 leaves his coat behind :S 2006-04-09 03:34:07 M:Khleevi: How are you going to handle Teppy creating a location somewhere inaccessible? 2006-04-09 05:09:29 M:singh: *** SPAM ALERT *** - * Support Singh for Patronage ! Donate your coupons today ! And have a smoke with me ! Located now by LN cs for convenient Delivery ! * - *** END SPAM *** 2006-04-09 14:23:02 kaayru: ----- 2006-04-09 14:23:05 kaayru: Hi Egypt :) 2006-04-09 14:23:36 kaayru: First, a little reminder: the poll to chose the test for the Monument of Leadership closes today ! 2006-04-09 14:24:08 kaayru: To vote, type /info poll and /chat me your favorite test :) 2006-04-09 14:24:44 kaayru: We have Amtep with today, to explain his test idea: The test of the Snake. 2006-04-09 14:24:51 kaayru: with us* 2006-04-09 14:25:33 kaayru: If you have any questions/feedbacks, just type directly on E!. 2006-04-09 14:26:43 Amtep: Hi there. First I should warn you that I have had very little sleep, so I may ramble a bit. 2006-04-09 14:27:36 Amtep: I'll start with a summary of the summary. The Test of the Snake is held in rounds, with each round lasting two egypt months (about 22 RL days) 2006-04-09 14:28:16 Amtep: When you sign up for the test, you get 5 pebbles, which are numbered and marked with your name and the name of the round. 2006-04-09 14:28:53 Amtep: These pebbles are like normal objects so they can be traded or given away or stashed somewhere. 2006-04-09 14:29:23 Amtep: The object is to gather pebbles from as many different people as you can. But there's a catch. 2006-04-09 14:29:49 Amtep: One of the 5 pebbles you get is a poison pebbles. You'll know which one it is when you get them, but no-one else can tell the difference with the normal pebbles. 2006-04-09 14:31:19 Amtep: If at the end of the round you're holding too many poison pebbles, your score won't count for that round. So you have to use your judgement about whose pebbles to accept. 2006-04-09 14:32:04 Amtep: The idea is to reward leaders who can gather broad support, but are also good judges of character. 2006-04-09 14:33:07 Amtep: The number of passes each round depends on how many people participated. This gives us egyptians a bit more control over the monument numbers :) 2006-04-09 14:33:30 Amtep: I did skip over some details here -- the full description is up on the wiki and in the forums. 2006-04-09 14:35:34 kaayru: Why do you think that's a good test for Leadership ? 2006-04-09 14:38:53 Amtep: I think it's a good test for leadership because it tests several skills that a good leader needs. 2006-04-09 14:39:41 Amtep: First, a leader needs supporters, and needs to be able to gather those. 2006-04-09 14:40:07 Amtep: But it is important to choose your supporters wisely, because you will end up delegating responsibilities to them. 2006-04-09 14:40:52 Amtep: And on the other hand, a leader must know when to support others, and when it is wise to do so. 2006-04-09 14:43:56 Amtep: I think this test tests those qualities, and does so b etter than earlier tests with the same goal, namely the Test of Trust from the first telling and the Test of the Bureaucrat from both tellings. 2006-04-09 14:44:27 Amtep: I can probably go on all day about this when I'm more awake, but I'm done with my answer for now :) 2006-04-09 14:44:41 M:Sebak: At the end of the round, do you get to find out who gave you the poison pebble, or do they remain anonymous? 2006-04-09 14:45:26 Amtep: At the end of a round, you will be told if you had too many poison pebbles, but not whose they were. 2006-04-09 14:46:26 Amtep: Of course, if you're holding only two pebbles, and that was too many, then you'll know both were poisonous :) If you already suspect some of being poison, then you may be able to have someone else hold them for you and find out that way. 2006-04-09 14:47:04 Amtep: But then of course if you were wrong, you lose those points. So I think it's a good balance where there's a tiny risk of being found out when you give a poison pebble, but not something that would normally happen. 2006-04-09 14:48:10 kaayru: I read on the Wiki: "Leaders who have passed this Test will gain the power, usable up to 3 times, to claim ownership of any building.". Why this scary reward ? Could you explain ? 2006-04-09 14:48:48 Amtep: Ah :) There are two reasons. 2006-04-09 14:49:44 Amtep: First, it's one of the qualities that I think should be tested -- namely, deciding who to give your support to, when that support really means something. 2006-04-09 14:50:11 Amtep: This reward is less powerful than the Demi-Pharaoh one, but perhaps more scary because it is more likely to be actually used. 2006-04-09 14:50:44 Amtep: Second, it makes it more meaningful to gather this support. People have to trust you more to give you a pebble, than to give you a patronage coupon :) 2006-04-09 14:51:46 Amtep: Third, this Test only works well if there is a real risk of getting poison pebbles along with good pebbles. The old Test of Trust didn't work well because it was very very rare for that trust to fail, so it was too easy that way. 2006-04-09 14:51:47 kaayru: The DP's power is scary, but they can't use it like they want, since there is a mesage on System, so they have to explain and justify their act.... 2006-04-09 14:52:18 Amtep: So having a scary reward gives people a reason to want to give out poison pebbles for the "greater good", rather than just because they want to pass this test themselves. 2006-04-09 14:52:29 Amtep: And that makes it far more likely for our good and honest citizens to use them :) 2006-04-09 14:53:18 Amtep: Hmm. I think there could be a message in System when this power is used as well, since it'll only work three times. But that is probably up to Teppy. 2006-04-09 14:54:26 Amtep: Note that the power can be used in very good and non-scary ways, such as getting rid of an annoying bonfire in your camp, or acting as mediator in a dispute about ownership. 2006-04-09 14:55:06 M:Al-Bilal: will the reward include test buildings like mosaics or cicada cages? 2006-04-09 14:56:36 Amtep: My intent is that it will work on any kind of building that you could salvage under our salvage laws. I don't think that salvaging a Tomb will let you actually pass with that Tomb, since it keeps track of the owner and designer separately. 2006-04-09 14:56:50 Amtep: I hope that such things can be worked out in a design meeting with our Pharaoh. 2006-04-09 14:59:35 Amtep: To be specific, it wouldn't work on cicada cages. I've never been able to DPPRA those, at least :) I don't know about mosaics. 2006-04-09 14:59:47 M:Al-Bilal: if you claim a compound, will that change ownership of all buildings inside? 2006-04-09 15:01:04 kaayru: Same question for guilds :) 2006-04-09 15:02:06 Amtep: No, the compound would be just 1 building. Unless we make laws that give compound owners this kind of power over the buildings inside, the buildings inside woudl be unaffected. 2006-04-09 15:03:23 Amtep: Oh, that may have been phrased badly :) I mean no, claiming a compound this way won't change ownership of the buildings inside. 2006-04-09 15:05:29 Amtep: And kaayru, do you mean guildhalls? Those are always owned by their guild, I don't think even Teppy can change that :) So those are safe. 2006-04-09 15:06:00 kaayru: ok :) 2006-04-09 15:07:28 kaayru: Any questions / feedsback ? Type directly in E! :) 2006-04-09 15:09:30 Amtep: Note that if we want, we can exclude some categories of buildings from this test reward before it's finalized, or even later when discussing with Teppy. For the second telling, we had a player meet specifically for discussing the details of the test designs. 2006-04-09 15:14:50 Amtep: That seems to be all the questions :) If you have more questions later, ask them here or in private chat and I'll try to answer them today. 2006-04-09 15:16:23 kaayru: Thanks for coming Amtep :) You'll find more details about the Test of the Snake on http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests :) 2006-04-09 16:11:11 M:kaayru: ------ 2006-04-09 16:11:11 M:AatonPulonich: We're less than an hour away from Takeskot Sunday, so get your gear and come on down to the Dunes! 2006-04-09 16:18:51 M:AatonPulonich: Folks, my bad: daylight savings time has foiled me for a second time. We're less than TWO hours away from Takeskot Sunday; it will be happening at 1800 UTC. Apologies! 2006-04-09 16:37:54 FaceAnkh: ----------------- 2006-04-09 16:38:12 FaceAnkh: hi Egypt :) 2006-04-09 16:38:40 FaceAnkh: Esme is here to chat a little about her Worship test proposal: The Test of the Leavened Bread :) 2006-04-09 16:39:15 FaceAnkh: you can find the full details on the wiki at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Leavened_Bread, but she's going to give a little overview and extra explanation first 2006-04-09 16:39:45 FaceAnkh: if you have questions, please put them into E! (kaayru kindly offered to post them) or send to me as /tells :) 2006-04-09 16:40:56 Thank you all for listening. I encourage you to look the test over while I talk and I wont try to give you ALL the details of it. But I really wanted to give you an idea of what I was trying to present in a worship test when I wrote it. 2006-04-09 16:43:03 I really wanted a test that I felt would represent the common man/woman in Egypt and represent his faith exhibited in everyday common life tasks. 2006-04-09 16:43:46 I didnt want a test that was about acquiring fancy things and burning them up or about doing something that a really worshipful person would do once and forget. 2006-04-09 16:44:11 So I chose bread making as a task to use to represent everyday life in Egypt and how a worshipful person might respond to that. 2006-04-09 16:44:57 I also wanted something that would bring a new element to Egypt...something new and fun we havent had so far but that would be a good addition to the things we already have here. 2006-04-09 16:45:41 I chose bread because of its tie in to worship historically across religions for years and years ..often a part of religious rituals. And I researched how it was used in ancient Egyptian religion as well. 2006-04-09 16:46:03 But I could have used tending a new kind of animal or perhaps growing a new food such as figs and tending those. 2006-04-09 16:46:29 Those would have been something new as well but the bread was not the main element of the test. 2006-04-09 16:46:33 It was just a material to use. 2006-04-09 16:47:14 Ancient Egyptians made bread everyday however but in this Egypt we have no bread. 2006-04-09 16:48:05 Basically this test introduces the ancient wheat Emer actually used in Egypt in the past. 2006-04-09 16:48:51 It emerges at the Univeristy of Worship and all people worshipful or not can make a basic bread that will enhance their work...bread gives sustenance even to the wicked nonworshipful you see ;p 2006-04-09 16:49:32 But those that make bread together with one another praising their gods and blessing it in their names get more blessings. 2006-04-09 16:50:10 So the test includes getting together with others, blessing the bread both as you make and eat it then offering it as a sacrifice to the gods and then sharing as a gift to others, 2006-04-09 16:50:25 You see Ancient Egyptians did this. 2006-04-09 16:50:47 They made bread daily and offered it to the gods often and to one another in hopes that they would be given a better afterlife. 2006-04-09 16:51:45 I also felt that there should be an element of making worship inviting to people at special times in their lives such as their new marriages or perhaps to new citizens 2006-04-09 16:52:11 so there is a reward included for doing that...making bread together in the homes of one another a small close knit group. 2006-04-09 16:52:46 Blessing it with ritual prayers and then offering to gods then sharing with new citizens and others when they have special times such as I mentioned (new citizens and newlyweds :)) 2006-04-09 16:53:37 My goal in this was to make worship more incorporated into everyday life as well as a part of the whole man not just a test pass using fancy gold and silver you cant afford and then doing something funky with it and never seeing it again. 2006-04-09 16:54:03 I also wanted to make it time zone friendly and to make it fun. 2006-04-09 16:54:26 Now when ancient Egyptians ate a meal most of the time whether common man or fancy man they had beer and bread as a meal. 2006-04-09 16:54:39 So there was alot of making the bread while the beer brewed. 2006-04-09 16:54:59 It is believed that perhaps some beer might have once splashed into the bread dough and thus introduced yeast into the bread. 2006-04-09 16:55:55 That is why the test is named Test of the Leavened Bread. The bread used in worship is a yeast bread instead of the basic flatbread that everyone already could make. 2006-04-09 16:56:30 The test therefore emulates the advancing technology of bread as a side component. 2006-04-09 16:57:25 first the ancient wheat Emer comes to us so we can make a flatbread useful by everybody. Then we get a more advanced bread that does more and spread to more people. Then we can add things such as possibly dates and figs. 2006-04-09 16:57:41 And as a test reward we might have bread ovens as one possiblity. 2006-04-09 16:58:25 You see I dont think its important that we use bread in this test. We "could use" other everyday elements of Egyptian Life. 2006-04-09 16:58:29 But isnt bread fun? 2006-04-09 16:59:01 and it has a natural tie in to worship historically as well as is a very key link missing in our life here in Egypt 2006-04-09 17:00:05 When I write or evaluate a test for a discipline the first thing I do is to go...is this the way this discpiline should go..is this adding to the feel of that discipline throughout Egypt? Is it fun and friendly to all to use? 2006-04-09 17:00:53 Does it provide somethign to the discipline as well as to Egypt that is missing from what we have now? Or is it just an activity that will be hard enough to pass to be called a test? 2006-04-09 17:01:38 I tried to write a test that did those things and I think several of the other tests do that too. 2006-04-09 17:02:25 anyway please do read the test and those of the other disciplines as well and think about not only was that a hard enough test or difficult enough but also..where is that test taking the discipline. 2006-04-09 17:02:45 I am not speaking just on worship now but just overall 2006-04-09 17:03:12 I appreciate your listening and will be happy to take questions. 2006-04-09 17:03:35 Just post to the E! mic if you have any questions or comments. 2006-04-09 17:05:33 FaceAnkh: great overview, especially of the meaning behind the test :) 2006-04-09 17:05:59 FaceAnkh: the test is laid out in detail on the wiki, but perhaps you could say how you'd see passing going? 2006-04-09 17:06:40 M:kaayru: I love the idea, that's how I see Worship - included in day life :) 2006-04-09 17:07:16 FaceAnkh: and what sort of things you're hoping to encourage groups to do with this test? :) 2006-04-09 17:08:54 As far as test passings I set up a system for each group to have point accumulations. 2006-04-09 17:09:34 I really don't like much competition in worship but feel that an accumulation of points is gentler than a once winner take all sort of test pass. 2006-04-09 17:10:02 In this test you can repeat the process and accumulate more points as well. 2006-04-09 17:10:36 Those that share more of their bread with the special occassion (new citizens newlyweds etc) get more points as well on each time they do this. 2006-04-09 17:11:21 I dont mind that people might have to do the test rituals more because the spirit of the test is to share with one another, share with the gods, and share with other people at special times of their lives. 2006-04-09 17:11:32 I think that feels very worship right :) 2006-04-09 17:12:32 nod, this test fits the feel of worship very well imho (perhaps only Ritual Dance comes similarly close) :) 2006-04-09 17:12:34 I am open to alternative ideas for a test pass system though but do want it to be not totally competition intensive or time zone unfriendly and to be a part of the whole process not incongruent with the whole feel of the test. 2006-04-09 17:13:45 I actually do like some of the other tests alot. I like the Ritural Priests alot because its so ceremonial. We renamed it informally Test of the Ritual Dance and its a beautiful worship test though as written is difficult. But that could be modified. 2006-04-09 17:14:12 Worship should be enjoyable ongoing and other centered and gods centered as well...cooperative 2006-04-09 17:14:48 There are several other tests that I think have great potential as well... 2006-04-09 17:15:17 I think Hallowed Ground and Test of Miracles especially along with Ritual Priests are great 2006-04-09 17:16:16 Teao has a question I think? 2006-04-09 17:18:02 Teao seems to have gone afk ..anyone else have a question or comment? 2006-04-09 17:18:03 So correct me if I'm wrong, but the main "test" part is tracking down people who fit the bill of who you give stuff to. This sounds like a neat mechanism over random resource gathering, a more advanced version of meet-the-people. After doing the ceremony how long do you get to find the people? what are the extra resource requirements to make lets say 100 bread instead of just 1 2006-04-09 17:18:12 oops 2006-04-09 17:18:12 (no just typing :P) 2006-04-09 17:19:40 The main part of the test is not really tracking down the people to give to since you really are not required to do alot of those. But doing more adds additional points to the group total. 2006-04-09 17:19:40 As you saw with my test suggestion, I worry more about the game mechanism, not the ritual :) I just said in mine "do some ritual" :) 2006-04-09 17:20:15 nod, a lot of the tests do that - Esme's test is probably the most complete in that sense 2006-04-09 17:20:26 nods but worship should be heavy in ritual imho and is more about the feeling of worship than mechanisms although both really are essential. 2006-04-09 17:20:38 But that can always be tweaked. 2006-04-09 17:21:59 The main part of the test I feel is in the making and blessing of the bread...thats a key component. It is important to make it in a worshipful manner and then sacrifice and share it. They are all equally as important. But you do alot more sharing with one another and the god (required) than you are required to do sharing with a special person outside the group. 2006-04-09 17:22:28 The ritual is cool, and very complex, which is good for a test, but after a few tries rituals aren't to hard to complete, so if there was no other mechanism it would be a test of who can click/type the ritual most often. I think if you make the main "test" part tracking down people it becomes a lot more difficult 2006-04-09 17:22:52 I didnt address how to make more bread at a time and should have perhaps. But I really would like to avoid making a mass of bread all at once and then stalking noobies and newlyweds with it all at once. 2006-04-09 17:23:24 I would rather see a moderate amount produced at a time so that it more fits the model of doing this in everyday life. 2006-04-09 17:24:18 I'd like to point at the Test of Beacons as one where the ritual remains an important part of the test, even for people who have done it before. 2006-04-09 17:24:33 So it depends on the kind of ritual :) 2006-04-09 17:24:45 I did put down you have to make at least a minimum so you have enough to share with each other as well as the god and at least another outside 2006-04-09 17:25:05 yes I like beacons actually..it is a fun test 2006-04-09 17:25:30 and I like that it is continuuing to allow others who have passed the test to continue to bring along other people 2006-04-09 17:25:35 coopeartive 2006-04-09 17:28:44 It was mentioned by Teao that he felt the test sounded like repetitive clicking and not a test of trying to organize lots of people. 2006-04-09 17:30:39 Esme: I replied (an Amtep requested it be repeated here) that that was somewhat right. Large coordination of people really is more of a leadership test. This was meant to be a cozy intricate test done with everyday life and unselfish non commanding in nature..and yet fun. Done with friends and then shared outside yourselves. Not a mass produced bread distributed like a warehouse ...but personal and common. 2006-04-09 17:31:25 Esme: Also large coordinateions like festival, although also fun, are not time zone friendly. I want everyone to be able to do this test if they choose to and not go ...oops I am not in that time zone. 2006-04-09 17:31:46 FaceAnkh: I mentioned that I thought it would probably be like Pilgrim in terms of the group organisation required 2006-04-09 17:32:20 FaceAnkh: and also that the finding the special person probably wouldn't be simple enough that it turns into a mass clicking exercise 2006-04-09 17:32:35 nods and also doesnt feel it has to be a ton of clicking per ritual. Especially if you arent able to make 100 bread at a time but just a few a day..perhaps 10-14 loaves? 2006-04-09 17:32:41 Teao: The "find people" mechanism wouldn't be very time zone dependant since you wouldn't need them all to be there at same time and place 2006-04-09 17:35:19 I really think it might be a mistake to have every discipline look the same . Arch and/or Leadership it might be great to have lots of tests you can just mass produce things and coordinate in a big mass of people. 2006-04-09 17:36:10 But I want worship to have its own look. Nothing wrong with the mass production but it doesnt feel close and personal the way I would like most of worship to be. Worship should be unique in being friendly, cooperative, personal, and equally available to all Egypt's people. 2006-04-09 17:36:24 FaceAnkh: any other comments out there? (chat to E!) :) 2006-04-09 17:37:12 The goin with your plans, you should add a maximum time limit to find people (bread spoils), or a maximum number of bread loves per ritual (oven size) 2006-04-09 17:38:18 *Then going 2006-04-09 17:38:37 Those are good suggestions. If we select this test we need to address that. 2006-04-09 17:39:12 I do think there are also other good suggestions for this test as well as other good tests. I just wanted people to understand what I saw as essential in this test is the feel of worship in it..not oh we make bread ;p 2006-04-09 17:40:56 anyone else have a question or a comment? 2006-04-09 17:41:53 F:Sapphicat: I wonder how this is going to coincide with the as yet unknown Harmony discipline. 2006-04-09 17:42:44 heehee probably pretty well..but its still a feel of worship with the blessings and prayers and rituals. I can see Harmony having no ritual possibly and not having any worship at all 2006-04-09 17:43:10 but both should be cooperative, friendly to all, and personal really at times 2006-04-09 17:43:47 I remind us all that our goal here is to build a perfect society and if we are working toward something other than that we are going to be hard pressed to achieve our goal. 2006-04-09 17:44:06 Writing tests that arent making us advance toward that goal just doesnt make much sense to me. 2006-04-09 17:44:30 Whether it be in leadership, arch, even conflict...we have to keep that end goal in mind. Making a better world. 2006-04-09 17:46:22 M:Zatarg: Isnt the test just to test us? 2006-04-09 17:46:23 waits for the banning for that comment ;p 2006-04-09 17:46:29 M:Zatarg: not to help us? 2006-04-09 17:47:05 It could be anything we write it to be. But the overall challenge from the stranger is to build a perfect society isnt it? So shouldnt a test advance that? 2006-04-09 17:47:42 imho, we're also shaping the Discipline to be what we think it should be - it doesn't have to be how Teppy created it :) 2006-04-09 17:47:46 M:Zatarg: No, the tests are the strangers devices to check if we are a perfect society as Pharaoh claimed we were 2006-04-09 17:48:13 it should test us, but we can help define what we're testing for - what sort of Discipline Worship should be 2006-04-09 17:48:25 Perhaps what test we write and agree upon reflects the real type of society we are? 2006-04-09 17:48:55 I really believe we have the power to choose what society type we are...and that these tests set the tone for each discipline. 2006-04-09 17:49:30 M:Zatarg: Yup i agree with you there :) 2006-04-09 17:51:10 I just worry as in real life that making things harder or more pressured can spoil a society not enhance it. I know this is a "game" etc...but it really is so much more than that. I think we need to really think of the whole picture when we create a test that is going to influence the next telling ..the next generation 2006-04-09 17:53:48 FaceAnkh: ok, we wandered around a bit there, but the topic was pretty appropriate considering the test :) 2006-04-09 17:54:07 FaceAnkh: thank you to Esme for coming and talking about her test and the Discipline in general :) 2006-04-09 17:54:26 FaceAnkh: and thank you to those who commented - some useful points raised :) 2006-04-09 17:54:51 thank you all for listening and apologies for the preaching but it IS sunday ;p 2006-04-09 17:55:20 FaceAnkh: -------------- 2006-04-09 17:55:57 FaceAnkh: LEADERSHIP: kaa asked me to say that the poll for the leadership test ends in an hour and a half (he actually said that 30mins ago ;) ) 2006-04-09 17:56:52 M:kaayru: 1 hour now :) Thanks FA :) 2006-04-09 18:31:02 F:JemGirl: Reminder all tomorrow is the last day for voting on Body monument test. Please chat FA with your vote 2006-04-09 18:34:53 FaceAnkh: ---------- 2006-04-09 18:35:05 FaceAnkh: chatting off poor jem here, but I'll put it back after :) 2006-04-09 18:35:54 FaceAnkh: Hellinar has kindly stopped by to chat about his test proposal too - The Test Of The Ritual Priests (or Ritual Dance, as it's been renamed) 2006-04-09 18:36:19 FaceAnkh: you can find details on the wiki at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Ritual_Priests (I'll put in a Ritual Dance redirect too) 2006-04-09 18:36:56 FaceAnkh: again, Hellinar is going to give us an overview, then we'll have a Q&A - please feel free to send comments to E! as we go, I'll post them at the end :) 2006-04-09 18:38:02 Legenda: hi 2006-04-09 18:38:11 Dragonix: can you sign= :D 2006-04-09 18:40:02 Hellinar: The test of Ritual Dance is all about ritual and movement 2006-04-09 18:40:15 Hellinar: Rather than sacrifice of worldly goods 2006-04-09 18:42:04 Hellinar: A number of priest get together, with different actions and positions to perform around the altar 2006-04-09 18:42:51 Hellinar: A major difference to current tests is that there are multiple positions at which the priest perform 2006-04-09 18:43:00 Hellinar: Marked by ritual torches 2006-04-09 18:44:22 Hellinar: So there is a sense of movement in the ritual as priests move from place to place 2006-04-09 18:44:46 Hellinar: A sequence is suggested on the Wiki writeup 2006-04-09 18:45:22 Hellinar: But that can be adjusted.. the main point is the multiple locations about the altar 2006-04-09 18:45:30 Hellinar: and the movement between them. 2006-04-09 18:45:38 Hellinar: The sense of a Ritual Dance 2006-04-09 18:48:05 FaceAnkh: this test is like Esme's in that there's a lot of emphasis on the ceremony and the feel 2006-04-09 18:49:03 FaceAnkh: the wiki page describes the setup of the altar and the sequences of dance to do 2006-04-09 18:49:25 FaceAnkh: could you maybe suggest how long you're thinking a single complete ceremony should take and how complex it should be? 2006-04-09 18:49:51 Hellinar: Well, I've been getting some feedback on that 2006-04-09 18:49:51 FaceAnkh: (anyone out there with questions - please drop comments onto E!) :) 2006-04-09 18:50:32 Hellinar: I now think the initial writeup would end up being overlong and repetitive 2006-04-09 18:51:32 Hellinar: My current thinking is the test could also fill another gap in the experience of Worship as I would like to see it 2006-04-09 18:52:29 Hellinar: I am distressed that the actual attaining of a new rank in Worship is a private, random affair 2006-04-09 18:53:18 Hellinar: You get "zapped" when the test passes run on Sunday.. if you happen to be on 2006-04-09 18:54:23 Hellinar: My proposal now is that the test of the Ritual Dance would serve as the place where "Aspirants" to a new rank publicly recieve the elevation to the new rank 2006-04-09 18:56:00 Hellinar: Following suggestions from Al-Bilal and Balthazzar, the 'Dance" for a Student level would be very simple, 2006-04-09 18:56:14 Hellinar: and very elaborate to elevate an Oracle 2006-04-09 18:57:02 Hellinar: People would thus have two reasons to join the Ritual Dance, to recieve their new rank in another test, or to gain points in this one 2006-04-09 18:57:46 M:CaveCub: how would one learn the moves required to perform the ritual movements? 2006-04-09 18:59:25 Hellinar: My current thinking is to use emotes in place for Holy Shrine 2006-04-09 19:00:05 Hellinar: Which emotes and their position would be popups, like in Beacons 2006-04-09 19:00:40 Hellinar: You would have several chances to complete a sequence.. so there would be some on the spot learning 2006-04-09 19:02:28 Hellinar: I would forsee the people serously following the test to become quite good at the movements, and help people just there for elevation through the ritual 2006-04-09 19:03:45 FaceAnkh: just for clarification, you're suggesting this proposal should be a passing ceremony that's part of all the Worship Discipline rather than a separate test in itself ? :) 2006-04-09 19:04:06 Hehe, I'm backing two horses here 2006-04-09 19:04:26 Depends on how much coding we can persuade Teppy to do for Worship 2006-04-09 19:04:39 I really like some of the other proposed tests too 2006-04-09 19:05:05 FaceAnkh: it would make a nice worshippy-feeling addition as either imho :) 2006-04-09 19:05:25 So perhaps we could get a new test, and something like Ritual Dance as a final public step for each new rank 2006-04-09 19:06:08 or make Ritual dance both a test in itself, and the place that mark completion of a new rank 2006-04-09 19:06:59 M:CaveCub: how can you count on others to help those not familiar with the movements to learn them and help them through the ritual? From the gaming that has been seen by everyone in ATITD I am not confident that you can guarantee others will help. 2006-04-09 19:08:22 Hellinar: My experience of Worship is that it has been the least "gamey" of the Disciplines 2006-04-09 19:08:43 Hellinar: Cooperation levels have been pretty good 2006-04-09 19:09:15 Hellinar: Also, in its latest form, the low rank rituals would be pretty easy 2006-04-09 19:09:30 FaceAnkh: I also think the general attitude of most Egyptians is to be helpful to others :) 2006-04-09 19:09:56 Hellinar: Its only towards the end of the Tale, when people are pretty experienced, that the more complex rituals for Master, Sage etc start to come in 2006-04-09 19:10:12 FaceAnkh: there's nothing really to gain from not helping, so there's no real disincentive either - which is as it should be in the Worship Discipline imho :) 2006-04-09 19:12:07 M:CaveCub: I think its a wonderful proposal and sounds quite fun. I just want to be sure that all possibilites are addressed :) 2006-04-09 19:12:24 F:Cappu: I worry that those of us in off-times will have trouble gathering so many particpants. Is there a way to counter this? 2006-04-09 19:13:35 Hellinar: The specific sequence of moves in a Ritual will be generated by the Server 2006-04-09 19:13:50 Hellinar: with longer sequences for higher rituals 2006-04-09 19:14:28 Hellinar: It seems to me quite possible that the Server could also do a population check when producing the ritual sequence 2006-04-09 19:14:40 Hellinar: And make it easier when the population was low 2006-04-09 19:15:03 Hellinar: This would give an incentive for people to attend a Ritual Dance at off hours 2006-04-09 19:15:49 Hellinar: And be some compensation for the difficulty poeple who only play at off hours have in forming large groups 2006-04-09 19:16:36 FaceAnkh: any other questions or comments out there? (chat to E!) :) 2006-04-09 19:18:42 FaceAnkh: ok, thank you for coming and talking, Hellinar :) 2006-04-09 19:18:53 FaceAnkh: and thanks to Cave and Cappu for the comments :) 2006-04-09 19:20:25 FaceAnkh: ------------- 2006-04-09 19:20:29 FaceAnkh: JemGirl: Reminder all tomorrow is the last day for voting on Body monument test. Please chat FA with your vote 2006-04-09 19:33:41 kaayru: ------ 2006-04-09 19:33:48 kaayru: Hello fols :) 2006-04-09 19:33:51 kaayru: folks even 2006-04-09 19:34:15 kaayru: The poll to chose the test for the Monument of Leadership just closed. 2006-04-09 19:34:36 kaayru: 59 citizens have voted, not too bad :) 2006-04-09 19:35:18 kaayru: With 18 votes, the Test of the Reborn, by Ankh-El-Pandemis, wins the poll :) 2006-04-09 19:36:12 kaayru: So, this test proposal will be added to the Monument construction site. 2006-04-09 19:36:24 kaayru: Thanks everybody who voted :) 2006-04-09 19:36:39 kaayru: Youc and find the full results here: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Of_Leadership/Poll/Result 2006-04-09 19:37:12 kaayru: ------ 2006-04-09 22:20:28 TpcT: LEADERSHIP: Just a quick reminder that the game-month only has a couple hours left for people to collect Patronage couplons. Those I've heard are looking for coupons include: LadyGrim MacPhisto Maxion Lill Eighteen Sabt-Pestnu Zatarg and Alzarus. Good luck! :) 2006-04-09 22:24:03 M:TpcT: ART: Only 1 slot remaining in the RSO rank-1 beetle garden. :) 2006-04-09 22:28:21 M:Zatarg: *send me your coupons :D* 2006-04-09 23:09:26 We have been reviewing worship tests today and having each test author to tell about their test personally. 2006-04-09 23:09:51 I have with me FaceAnkh who is ready to tell about his proposed Test of the Hallowed Ground. 2006-04-09 23:10:42 FaceAnkh: hi all :) I'll start with a little overview as with the others :) 2006-04-09 23:11:04 FaceAnkh: again, send questions to E! directly - we can post them after the overview :) 2006-04-09 23:11:37 FaceAnkh: the full details are on the wiki at http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Hallowed_Ground 2006-04-09 23:12:03 FaceAnkh: I'll begin with just quoting the blurb to give a feeling of where I was trying to go with this test 2006-04-09 23:12:06 FaceAnkh: --- 2006-04-09 23:12:22 FaceAnkh: Some places in Egypt are blessed by the presence of the Gods, touching the spirit of anyone that goes near them. 2006-04-09 23:12:27 FaceAnkh: These hallowed grounds deserve the reverence of the people, who will earn the favour of the God residing there. 2006-04-09 23:12:33 FaceAnkh: With a small group of friends, venerate the sacred ground with simple ceremonies, prayers and an offering appropriate to the God, as the immortals only linger for a few short days. 2006-04-09 23:12:38 FaceAnkh: When the God moves on, they will recognise the effort of all the faithful that came to pay homage. 2006-04-09 23:12:43 FaceAnkh: Those who remain devoted, showing true belief and abiding respect, will continue to receive the rewards of the Gods' grace. 2006-04-09 23:12:45 FaceAnkh: --- 2006-04-09 23:13:43 FaceAnkh: so, the basic idea of the test was to try and make it large-ish scale similar to Festivals and not restricted overly by timezones 2006-04-09 23:13:55 FaceAnkh: it's got several phases to it: 2006-04-09 23:14:26 FaceAnkh: to begin with, there's a searching phase - people run around Egypt, looking for places where one of the seven Gods is residing for that week 2006-04-09 23:15:14 FaceAnkh: once a God is found in an area, there's a large-group organisation phase 2006-04-09 23:16:01 FaceAnkh: this is in two parts the way it's proposed - first, an altar should be built at the site of the God. While it shouldn't be too expensive, it should be enough to encourage people to get together for it 2006-04-09 23:16:49 FaceAnkh: the second part of the organisation is trying to organise people to come and worship this God - they can only worship one per week and the scores are cumulative, like Festivals, so it's beneficial for people to group up 2006-04-09 23:17:33 FaceAnkh: the final phase of the test is the small group phase, where groups of 3 people come to the God's location and worship 2006-04-09 23:18:38 FaceAnkh: this would be with a ritual appropriate to the God - Bastet might have the traditional grass and camel milk - with each of the three people taking a role in the ceremony from praying, sacrificing or dancing 2006-04-09 23:19:04 FaceAnkh: at the end of the weekly cycle, the Gods all move on to new places 2006-04-09 23:19:39 FaceAnkh: and everyone that participated in worshipping a God that week gets a score based on the total number that worshipped 2006-04-09 23:20:30 FaceAnkh: the other aspect of the test proposal that was interesting was that the reward should be something that's small but often useful, but only lasts for 7 uses 2006-04-09 23:21:04 FaceAnkh: to recharge it, you just need to take part in another ritual - this should help keep participation up once people have passed 2006-04-09 23:21:34 FaceAnkh: ok, that's the basic overview - if you have questions, please send them to E! or /tell Esme :) 2006-04-09 23:21:58 Esme: I like the recharging idea :) 2006-04-09 23:22:27 FaceAnkh: nod, that one would fit into several of the other tests too :) 2006-04-09 23:24:33 M:Sejdemash: Do you feel this test if a bit too like Festivals? it seems a synthesis of that and humble, with a bit of body thrown in.. 2006-04-09 23:25:03 warns Sej he might get fired if he asks hard questions 2006-04-09 23:25:27 FaceAnkh: it is pretty similar to Festivals to be fair - it was designed based around the worship discussion on E! a while back 2006-04-09 23:25:58 FaceAnkh: in that one, the general feeling was that Festivals was a bit of a tough test for people coming to it late and impossible to those with timezone constraints 2006-04-09 23:26:22 FaceAnkh: so I tried to design something that worked around those obstacles and was still a large scale test 2006-04-09 23:27:03 FaceAnkh: I've always enjoyed the organisational side of Worship and the other test proposals didn't seem to cover this area so much - they tended to be smaller groups 2006-04-09 23:27:19 The time zone issues have been a pervasive complaint from worship disciplines . I think it is good that you tried to address that. 2006-04-09 23:28:47 Another issue has been how to entice already passed people to help the newly trying worshippers along. I think it addresses that well too. 2006-04-09 23:29:23 I'm quite fond of the search - large group - small group split too :) 2006-04-09 23:29:24 Please paste any comments or questions you might have to the E! mic and it can be pasted in . 2006-04-09 23:29:43 M:Sejdemash: Is there room for two Festival-sized tests in Worship? 2006-04-09 23:29:55 is so firing that mule :S 2006-04-09 23:30:08 M:Hasani: yes, i like this proposal as a replacement for festivals 2006-04-09 23:30:49 FaceAnkh: this test proposal was designed with replacing Festivals in mind - it might be tricky to have both still in 2006-04-09 23:31:13 Esme: So there are no expensive materials needed for this test? I know that has been an issue in Vigil and some other worship tests. 2006-04-09 23:31:30 FaceAnkh: to some extent, it depends on what happens with Marriage moving to Harmony - whether Teppy will replace Marriage himself or put the new monument test in place of it 2006-04-09 23:32:11 FaceAnkh: the small group sacrifices should be very cheap - something like camel milk or candles 2006-04-09 23:32:55 FaceAnkh: the large group organisational phase should probably be medium cost - not outrageous, but enough that it would need a moderately well off patron or a small group of people 2006-04-09 23:33:23 FaceAnkh: it doesn't even have to be expensive in terms of numbers - it could just be something simple like a different set of paints for every altar 2006-04-09 23:33:47 FaceAnkh: just enough to get people to work together a little and encourage something large scale, a bit like the Festival organisation 2006-04-09 23:34:15 Esme: Will there be any rare things needed or all common objects. No fruit spirits I hope? 2006-04-09 23:34:50 FaceAnkh: no, I was thinking nothing rare really - the small group phase is pretty similar to worship initiation (it was modelled on that) 2006-04-09 23:35:03 FaceAnkh: so it should all be easily accessible for the common worshipper 2006-04-09 23:35:27 FaceAnkh: any other questions out there? (apart from Sej) 2006-04-09 23:36:26 Esme: So basically the advantage of Hallowed Ground from festivals would be that its new, more time zone friendly, no rare materials? Do I understand correctly ? 2006-04-09 23:36:48 FaceAnkh: that's the basic idea, yes :) 2006-04-09 23:36:58 Esme: Oh and rechargeable so that the ones that pass keep helping new people through. 2006-04-09 23:37:10 FaceAnkh: it also introduces a few extra elements (mainly the search phase and the recharging reward) :) 2006-04-09 23:37:17 Esme: yes 2006-04-09 23:38:26 JemGirl: woohoo 2006-04-09 23:38:30 JemGirl: is excited 2006-04-09 23:38:37 M:Sejdemash: How does it fit into Worship discipline? Both Esme's (Bread) and Hellinar's (Ritual Dance) tests have a strong feel of ceremony or worship to them 2006-04-09 23:38:39 JemGirl: Listens more 2006-04-09 23:39:02 FaceAnkh: hehe, the search phase should definitely appeal to the Jem-like body people :) 2006-04-09 23:39:25 JemGirl: loves a challenge 2006-04-09 23:39:38 answers Sej, but is going to send him to clean out the camel pens after this 2006-04-09 23:40:06 FaceAnkh: Esme's test is more integrated into everyday life than this proposal 2006-04-09 23:40:25 FaceAnkh: and Hellinar's is more oriented to the ceremonial/ritual side 2006-04-09 23:41:02 FaceAnkh: this one is more like the other test proposals really - a bit more around the mechanism of the test and trying to make it fun and group oriented - that was the focus 2006-04-09 23:41:28 FaceAnkh: there is one other aspect to it though 2006-04-09 23:42:01 FaceAnkh: I've always rather liked the spiritual aspect of journeys and the sense of place that you get when you find somewhere peaceful 2006-04-09 23:42:44 FaceAnkh: I was hoping that, in implementation, Teppy could make it so the Gods would find areas that fit them (deserts for Ra, maybe flowers and meadows for Bastet) 2006-04-09 23:42:59 FaceAnkh: so that when people go there to worship, they might feel a bit of that sense of place too 2006-04-09 23:43:40 that sounds nice 2006-04-09 23:43:41 M:Sejdemash: hopes there's a God of camel pens :S 2006-04-09 23:44:15 FaceAnkh: any other questions out there? (my mule is done asking nasty questions, so unless anyone else has one?) 2006-04-09 23:45:34 ok, looks like it *muffles Sej* :) 2006-04-09 23:46:33 If there are no more questions or comments...we'll end the discussion for now. 2006-04-09 23:46:56 Thank you FaceAnkh for telling us about your Test of the Hallowed Ground 2006-04-09 23:47:26 again the url is http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Tests/The_Test_Of_The_Hallowed_Ground 2006-04-09 23:48:49 FaceAnkh: --------- 2006-04-09 23:48:52 FaceAnkh: TpcT: LEADERSHIP: Just a quick reminder that the game-month only has a couple hours left for people to collect Patronage couplons. Those I've heard are looking for coupons include: LadyGrim MacPhisto Maxion Lill Eighteen Sabt-Pestnu Zatarg and Alzarus. Good luck! :) 2006-04-09 23:50:46 JemGirl: BODY MONUMENT: You got till tomorrow night to give FA your vote on the test of choice. Its either Zintwana's Oyster Catch or Ankh-El Pandemis's Trial of Contempletation 2006-04-09 23:51:40 JemGirl: Also if you are a body person I need you to all come up and apply to the Body Monument site we will buidling this thing on Sat at 2pm edt. we are still in need of Journeymen and Below 2006-04-09 23:52:19 JemGirl: oh coords are 1375 715 in the Dunes 2006-04-09 23:52:45 JemGirl: I will be tearing the GH and CP we have tomorrow night 2006-04-09 23:52:51 JemGirl: Thanks all and NIght 2006-04-10 00:03:08 F:Anankha: **** Level 1 Beetle Garden in RSO - OPEN for judging! Come get one passed before telling is over. ***** 2006-04-10 00:32:48 Hasani: Good evening, Egypt. We have a new guild (Architecture Test Discussion Forum) set up for folks to discuss ideas for the T3 Architecture test. The GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. Please come join the guild and bring your grand Architecture ideas!! 2006-04-10 04:28:19 M:singh: ** Thank you all for your support for Patronage, it is greatly appreciated. Thanks for letting me pass ** 2006-04-10 04:33:34 F:Sedelyan: Congrats to every Patronage passer! The leftovers from the last round of Patronage are: Eighteen, Zatarg. I'm also entering this round, so if you feel I'm worthy, I'd also be willing to collect coupons! :) Good luck to everyone in the next round. 2006-04-10 16:38:48 M:kaayru: === 2006-04-10 16:38:54 M:kaayru: Hello Egypt :) 2006-04-10 16:40:11 M:kaayru: So, wah about the Monument of Leadership? :) We are done with collecting resources, we have chosen an Oracle and a test proposal... what now ? :) Ahhh I know ! Building this damn Monument ! :) 2006-04-10 16:42:55 M:kaayru: I built the construction site in CotS 5082 -1698. That's not far from the CS, nice place, on the beach, the perfect place :) 2006-04-10 16:45:11 M:kaayru: We'll bring the stuff thanks to a strong carry recipe (I think theMaze cooked something nice :) ), and I just discovered that, thanks to the test of Patronage, I can place a waypoint where I want, and everybody can warp there (I'm not sure tho, i've to test it :) ) 2006-04-10 16:47:16 M:kaayru: I've just created a first supporters list. I only took people who added their name to the wiki page, and that's only based on ranks. If your name isn't on the list, please chat me quickly :) (note only students and more can participate). 2006-04-10 16:47:25 M:kaayru: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Of_Leadership/Supporters 2006-04-10 16:52:56 ============ 2006-04-10 16:53:10 Hello, fellow Egyptians ! 2006-04-10 16:54:03 The RSO level 1 beetle garden still needs 27 votes. Please come by and have a lokk at the marvelous beasts displayed, give some of us a chance to get to level 2 :) 2006-04-10 16:54:18 ============ 2006-04-10 17:01:11 M:kaayru: Again me :) If you're student or more of Leadership, you can come down to CotS 5082 -1698 and apply to the Monument Construction Site :) 2006-04-10 17:28:55 M:kaayru: Hmmmm, seems onlys ages can apply, then masters then scribes and so on.... so don't come for the moment :) 2006-04-10 18:32:05 M:kaayru: Ok, the site seems bugged.... waiting for Teppy to fix it. 2006-04-10 18:53:59 F:Sedelyan: While we continue: Egypt, please remember to visit your local sphinx! If your riddles have expired, become common, or failed to become perfect (as nobles), remove them and drop more in! The more we get, the more likely it will be that the 21 -- yes, TWENTY-ONE -- points will be awarded to a possible Oracle; if not, there will be no oracle at all. 2006-04-10 20:12:25 Psychodelica: aha ! I found you ! 2006-04-10 20:12:58 Psychodelica: just a quick short message to spread to the world 2006-04-10 20:13:32 Psychodelica: I broadcast for you 5 special reason why you should support Psy (that's me) for Patronage 2006-04-10 20:13:42 Psychodelica: 1) cause you love me 2006-04-10 20:13:56 Psychodelica: 2) cause I am annoying and will only shut up when you give me your coupons 2006-04-10 20:14:24 Psychodelica: 3) cause I'm funny, sexy, intelligent, charming, cute .... 2006-04-10 20:14:36 Psychodelica: 4) cause i'm a PITA 2006-04-10 20:15:08 Psychodelica: 5) because you think i'm a great leader ?? 2006-04-10 20:15:22 Psychodelica: okay, let's scratch this last point :) 2006-04-10 20:16:00 Psychodelica: but anyways, your support would be greatly appreciate, I can put some donation chests at the cs, or send me a chat/tell and I'll come pick them up. 2006-04-10 20:16:26 Psychodelica: Thanksee all ! *blows a kiss to you all* 2006-04-10 20:53:51 M:kaayru: === 2006-04-10 20:54:46 M:kaayru: The Monument Construction Site has been fixed ! You can now apply to the site in CotS 5082 -1698 (if you're a student or more :) ) 2006-04-10 20:56:31 M:kaayru: You can find a suppoters list, based on ranks, here: http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Monument_Of_Leadership/Supporters 2006-04-10 20:56:50 M:kaayru: If your name isn't on this list, just /chat me :) 2006-04-10 22:45:48 M:FaceAnkh: WORSHIP: there was a big Pharaoh-y boss, who made up requirements with a coin toss, hairy-slimy-spotted and smelly-fuzzy-phos!, so if an aqueduct you should come across, please drink and help us find that moss 2006-04-10 22:45:49 M:FaceAnkh: (no adding extra lines about not giving a toss ;) ) 2006-04-10 22:46:22 M:FaceAnkh: (future verses will get worse unless we find the moss too ;) ) 2006-04-11 00:16:14 F:Sedelyan: Sed's Kitchens is up to 21 dishes right now! More will come later tonight, but for now, we need: Eggplant, Grilled Fish, Onions(!), Mushrooms: (Brain, Dung Rot, Earth Light, Eye of Osiris, Fish Hook, Nature's Jug, Nefertari's Crown, Razor's Edge, Sand Spore, Scorpion's Brood, Slave's Bread)...and herbs, (Bee Balm, Daggerleaf, Fleabane, Fumitory, Houseleek, Lemondrop, Meadowsweet, Silvertongue Damia, Sorrel, Sweetflower, Tsangto, Yava, Yigory)! Drop by and chow down, and remember to visit the RSO sphinx on your way out! Sed's Kitchens are at 2384, 5317; check /info Sedelyan's Kitchens if you need a reminder. 2006-04-11 01:25:53 F:Sedelyan: 7 masterpieces are now available, as well as a statistic reset, at the RSO Chariot! These have limited use (as I had limited materials to work with), so come quick! Donations provided by the CRC, and don't forget to rate and answer Sphinx riddles while you're here! 2006-04-11 11:08:31 JemGirl: BODY MONUMENT: If you a body person Please Come to the Monument Site and apply now we still need many positions filled from Journeyman to Student. If we don't get this there is a posibility we want build till we have the required people. Even if you are above I can still get you, but it will in these positions I am sorry for that but it was really a hard task to pick who gets what positions. Site is located at 1346 715 2006-04-11 11:09:03 JemGirl: Building of Monument could be delayed this Sat 2006-04-11 12:04:50 JemGirl: Oh and before I got to work. We will announcing who won the Body Test for the Monument at 7:30 edt tonight 2006-04-11 17:00:30 M:kaayru: === 2006-04-11 17:01:14 M:kaayru: LEADERSHIP: We brought all the materials on the site (Ty TheMazeEcho and Panyea for the help!) :) 2006-04-11 17:02:37 M:kaayru: Now we need disciples to fill the Monument ! The site is in CotS 5082 -1698. If you're student or more (at least 1 test passed), come down and apply ! :) 2006-04-11 19:47:01 M:TheMazeEcho: ******* Sinai's lvl 1 beetle garden is desperately waiting on 4 more beetels to start the exposition. It has been waiting for almost 3 weeks.... Please come and put your breedings up for display :) ********** 2006-04-11 22:02:20 ----- 2006-04-11 22:02:36 Good evening egypt 2006-04-11 22:04:00 im a here to discuss the nature of my topic on the forums etc. That we should game to win the telling 2006-04-11 22:04:20 M:kaayru: *spanks Zatarg* 2006-04-11 22:04:31 :) 2006-04-11 22:04:55 After reading the main point seems to be that people dont want to win the telling by eithicly loosing it 2006-04-11 22:05:03 by that i mean the dont want to win by cheating 2006-04-11 22:05:22 well im very sorry, but i just cant understand how it can be comprihended as cheating 2006-04-11 22:05:44 it is people working together to advance other people in their discipline 2006-04-11 22:06:21 that is my main point. please disprove it 2006-04-11 22:06:32 M:Blogmul: Gaming to win is losing to vanity and cheating. I'd rather lose to game the win. And I'm happy to see everyone that replied on the forums has the same opinion... 2006-04-11 22:06:59 Again i do not belive its cheating and cannot see how others can get this eitehr 2006-04-11 22:07:01 either * 2006-04-11 22:08:45 M:NoparKing: what if the monuments are never built? 2006-04-11 22:08:50 Feel free to type directly into the channel or /chat me with a question 2006-04-11 22:08:59 then we 'loose' the telling 2006-04-11 22:09:20 or rather, the Stranger wins 2006-04-11 22:09:20 M:FaceAnkh: gaming would make any win hollow, imho - why do something just for the buildings (monuments) if there's no meaning behind it :) 2006-04-11 22:09:25 F:Deeva: we lose either way 2006-04-11 22:10:00 again i still cannot see why this is cheating (id like you to disprove my point about it not being cheating :)) 2006-04-11 22:10:07 F:Calixes: it's sort of an underlying theme in the game, Z...to succeed based solely on the merits of what we create vs. just forcing the issue regardless of quality. i'd rather not succeed if it's at the price of quality, personally. 2006-04-11 22:10:28 M:Blogmul: I believed you had understood the problems of cheating what gaming (and what it meant) when there was the beetle gamin issue on LnP. Even your "This is just a game" opinions were covered there... Seems you forgot the explanations... Worth it going over them again? 2006-04-11 22:10:46 M:Kaotika: 'On a very neutral note, the stranger challenged us to pass the tests and build the monuments. It's only us who decide *how* we do that - only us who impose silly rules and structures around the system. Take Architecture, for example, a discipline, as quoted by teppy, for 'Contractors'. People effectively paying for passes or assisted passes. Is this 'gaming'? We're the people who decide - and any rules and structures that we set up around the existing constructs are entirely our own doing. Just something to think on. 2006-04-11 22:11:06 M:TheMazeEcho: I don't care for the Stranger. I play for fun, not for his puny ploys 2006-04-11 22:11:14 M:kaayru: Anyway, if we game Art, looots of people won't support the Monument, so we'll lose :) 2006-04-11 22:11:37 M:NoparKing: The title "Oracle" would mean nothing if outright gaming were employed 2006-04-11 22:12:01 again for the lnp thing, i to be honest i dont care whether its a game or not... that doesnt mater any more, what matters is that we are loosing, and the way to win people wont do it for they think it is wrong 2006-04-11 22:12:10 i am challengin that thought 2006-04-11 22:12:12 M:kap0w: the stranger said, 'do this or die'. we didn't. he died.... so what if theres no art oracle we have enouch oracles of 4 to fill in the gaps 2006-04-11 22:12:18 M:Kaotika: The title means whatever we want it to mean - we ascribe that value. 2006-04-11 22:12:54 M:kap0w: gaming art is foolish, the tale will end when t3 is ready, whether we meet the strangers challenges or not 2006-04-11 22:12:57 but we still need an oracle of art to 'win' 2006-04-11 22:13:00 F:Calixes: i disagree, Z. what i do here has value regardless of what the end is. therefore, forcing that end conflicts for me. 2006-04-11 22:13:07 F:Deeva: that value is imbued on a creation by its creator 2006-04-11 22:13:13 yes but T3 will be affected by whether we do this 2006-04-11 22:13:28 what end am i forcing calixes? 2006-04-11 22:13:41 M:kap0w: then start raising beetles or something 2006-04-11 22:13:43 F:Calixes: and? 2006-04-11 22:13:46 F:Deeva: you devalue the legitimate work of all, when you "give away" passes without that effort 2006-04-11 22:13:47 M:kaayru: That's the game. 2006-04-11 22:13:57 F:Wuqensta: if we game the thing, we lose by default - gaming kills the FUN and without FUN, game is more than lost - it's ruined. 2006-04-11 22:14:13 why does it kill the fun? all it is is us helping others 2006-04-11 22:14:16 F:Calixes: you're forcing a 'win' that isn't necessarily deserved by merit. apparently a lot of folks take issue with that. 2006-04-11 22:14:32 M:Kaotika: It's very easy to shout 'gaming is evil' - and yes, there are moral and paradigm issues here. Our ultimate goal, to 'suceed' (whatever that may be) is to build the monuments. Teppy doesn't care how, Gharib doesn't care how. We've all enjoyed the tale so far and the work we've put in; what does it matter if we need to tip the scales - scales that we have defined, created and weighed to create a system that has indeed work, but has now proved insufficient due to the game's design flaws and small populuation - in order to accomplish our goals? 2006-04-11 22:14:33 point of my discussion Calixes :) 2006-04-11 22:14:44 M:kap0w: so we lose. so what? so long as we had fun. isn't that why we pay to be here? 2006-04-11 22:14:51 M:kap0w: or "pass teppy's tests"? 2006-04-11 22:15:06 yes 2006-04-11 22:15:08 however 2006-04-11 22:15:28 next telling will be influenced by whether we win this one or not 2006-04-11 22:15:33 F:Calixes: you asked what 'end' you're forcing. that was the answer, Z. =) 2006-04-11 22:15:39 M:kap0w: gaming art would be terrible beyond reproach, imho 2006-04-11 22:15:49 so it may be boring to rpeat the same tests over and over again because we are incapable of passing them 2006-04-11 22:16:00 F:Calixes: and to that i respond 'so what?', Z. 2006-04-11 22:16:10 M:kap0w: so we fail, i'll just be oracle next time ;) 2006-04-11 22:16:13 M:Kaotika: Why, Kap0w? The artists we have have enjoyed what they've done, and nothing that happens now will devalue their work - simply allow their work to be celebrated. 2006-04-11 22:16:19 then the fun will be lost and the point of the game will be lost why we pay to be here 2006-04-11 22:16:32 but if we cant pass this telling what makes you sure yo ucan pass the next one? 2006-04-11 22:16:55 F:Calixes: for you perhaps, Z. it's fun to me regardless. apparently, that's why people take issue with your point. it's not all about the win. 2006-04-11 22:17:14 is not the win that is what i want 2006-04-11 22:17:26 hrm bad language, the win doesnt matter to me 2006-04-11 22:17:35 M:kap0w: Hubris tells me i could be oracle of art in t3 8) 2006-04-11 22:17:42 what i want is what the Pharaoh says we have and the stranger challenges 2006-04-11 22:17:44 M:NoparKing: You can win at any game by getting all the cheat codes and shortcuts - and thus decrease your fun in playing. We chose this game because it is challenging. 2006-04-11 22:17:52 a perfect society 2006-04-11 22:18:10 its more challenging because society wont let us help one and other 2006-04-11 22:18:16 M:Kaotika: Calixes - yes, it is. That's the *whole* point, if you're going to 'play the game'. In which case, enjoy what people have done, and support that. Tipping the scales in order to balance a system that has failed due to poor design in places, and a small population is hardly a horrific crime.. 2006-04-11 22:18:16 M:kap0w: you can be perfect and still fail... :p 2006-04-11 22:18:16 F:Calixes: you've already got it then, Z. what more do you want? =) 2006-04-11 22:18:29 the soicety is NOT perfect 2006-04-11 22:19:00 if i cannot help a friend from fear of losing any standing i have then its not perfect 2006-04-11 22:19:11 M:Kaotika: NoparKing - happy birthday. But it's not about cheating. It's about us having done everything that we can by the constraints that we've designed -which have worked till now - which no longer work. And there being no reason not to change those, when doing so won't devalue or damage existing and future work. 2006-04-11 22:19:30 Thurgret: the problem is we have no oracles for a few of the disiplines and not enough bodies in those same disiplines 2006-04-11 22:19:41 F:Miralda: no sociaty in the world is perfect 2006-04-11 22:19:58 also, the people that work in art and gain passes 'legitematly' then they are not going to be affected 2006-04-11 22:20:08 then why bother with the game? if we cannot reach the goal? 2006-04-11 22:20:09 ever 2006-04-11 22:20:24 Thurgret: why don't we have only 1 disipline and 14 ranks that way you will have as much support and interest of the tests as they merit :) 2006-04-11 22:21:16 Thurgret: drive by shooting with that :) 2006-04-11 22:21:18 I agree that being helpful to a win is not necessarily cheating - I've no problem with encouraging actions without answers and identities revealed. 2006-04-11 22:21:38 F:Calixes: Kao - as a participant in Art here, the only concession i've made to the 'we need to win' idea is that i allowed Deohotep to post the locations of my pieces on the wiki. that's as far as i'm willing to go. before that, i didn't tell anyone about them. Z, for me, it's about playing, not winning. the goal is irrelevant. 2006-04-11 22:21:45 but i want to help my friend pass, then how am i suppose to help him if i dont know what thing is theirs? 2006-04-11 22:22:06 Calixes: my point is, why should Pharaoh bother continuing a game where the goal is not possible? 2006-04-11 22:22:07 F:Calixes: by voting on everything you see. 2006-04-11 22:22:22 but if theirs is rubbish, then im not helping them pass 2006-04-11 22:22:23 M:kap0w: there are ways to encourage and help art w/o cheating 2006-04-11 22:22:29 yes 2006-04-11 22:22:34 M:Kaotika: Why's that matter? Even if we all make an organised effort to 'game' somebody to the top, how does that devalue a 'legitimate' sculpture, or mosaic? Other than that when the end of the tale comes, everybody involved in Art are just going to get shit on by Gharib 2006-04-11 22:22:42 yes but none of that is being done, and my approach would be easier 2006-04-11 22:22:50 F:Calixes: you're not really helping them if you vote that it's crap, Z. 2006-04-11 22:23:01 Gharib will shit on us if we dont 'win' 2006-04-11 22:23:10 exactly! 2006-04-11 22:23:14 how so? 2006-04-11 22:23:16 so i cant help them if i dont know which is theirs 2006-04-11 22:23:44 F:Calixes: if it's crap, it doesn't deserve help, IMO. 2006-04-11 22:24:00 but its not the puzzle or art im helping 2006-04-11 22:24:01 M:FransGeerts: if we wan't 2 win.. we should do so by helping ppl 2 do art tests.. while enjoying them.. not forcing them 2 do so 2006-04-11 22:24:02 its my friend 2006-04-11 22:24:03 M:TheMazeEcho: I never look at the owner before voting. Voting should only be based upon the intrisic quality of the art piece 2006-04-11 22:24:32 F:Deeva: im shit-proof, as it happens 2006-04-11 22:24:49 we are not forcing people to do the test 2006-04-11 22:24:56 we are helping the ones who have done them to pass 2006-04-11 22:25:00 M:kap0w: suspending disbelief for a second, if we became a perfect society by everybodys standards, it's still possible to lose the challenges. 2006-04-11 22:25:00 F:Calixes: friend or no, crap is crap. i vote my conscience, or i don't vote. that's as helpful as i get. 2006-04-11 22:25:14 M:TheMazeEcho: and Gharib will have to jump mighty high to shit on me :p 2006-04-11 22:25:16 M:Kaotika: So, how many of you all make concerted efforts to support these disciplines throughout the telling? How many people set up guild projects to promote, sponsor and make these persuits accessable? /wrygrin. Bit late to be worrying now.. 2006-04-11 22:25:18 "certain selected ones" 2006-04-11 22:25:27 yes kap0w, but this time we are loosing because we are inperfict 2006-04-11 22:27:19 Thurgret: I'm ready for Egypt to get slagged down to bedrock :) 2006-04-11 22:27:27 M:FransGeerts: so.. nobody's perfect... and i'm glad i'm not 2 b honoust 2006-04-11 22:27:27 F:Calixes: not everyone thinks winning is important...or even necessary. so this whole discussion is sort of moot, except for any fun incidentally had. =) 2006-04-11 22:27:32 Thurgret: burn baby burn win or lose :) 2006-04-11 22:28:18 the point is, you dont know if someone is gaming you, so if its not fun to be gamed then you must all hate this game, no matter how many people hold that they dont agame, many of you will do 2006-04-11 22:28:22 its in our nature 2006-04-11 22:29:18 NoparKing: I always ask, 'what happens if I don't finish this?' what if the monuments never get built? Is it any skin off my nose? what happens? 2006-04-11 22:29:52 we fail the telling 2006-04-11 22:30:08 BFD in BFE 2006-04-11 22:30:14 and to point out... 2006-04-11 22:30:26 F:Deeva: oye vey, thats a truckload of dookie! 2006-04-11 22:30:26 M:TheMazeEcho: anyway the point is moot, there are not enough disciples to fill up a monument, even in gaming the next passes 2006-04-11 22:30:27 F:Calixes: the point for me is that the vote is almost irrelevant - i don't care if i pass. for others who want to, to get my vote, you'd better produce. i don't respond to bribery or pressure very positively. ;) 2006-04-11 22:30:46 M:Kaotika: The next point is: Let's not make this mistake in T3. There's been a ridiculously incestuous culture breeding in T2 for months. A closed, stagnant community afraid of change and reform. KaBoom caused outrage. Enhanced Mining caused fear and hatred, when it should have been studied and put to use immediately, rather than the users having to lurk in the shadows to avoid persecution. People are arrogant, and stuck in their ways - and that's at least part of the problem. And what's really sad is that a whole lot of *good* people have left, entirely due to these attitudes. So let's at least ttry and be a little more daring in T3, and support each other, and try and be a little more flexible and dynamic. Then we might not end up grinding ourselves into a ruyt 2006-04-11 22:30:47 your opinion that you play for fun and thats all. fair enough, but bu refusin to help egypt 'win' then you are denying some people what they strive for, what they find fun 2006-04-11 22:31:44 nods 2006-04-11 22:32:16 F:Calixes: i'm not refusing my help. i vote all the time. but i won't call a pile of crap a bed of roses for anyone. =) 2006-04-11 22:32:18 I only say this, if,for example, one person needed a level 3 Beetle win to become an Oracle - what about the other people who've been working for months to get to a level 3 beetle win? Do they not matter? 2006-04-11 22:32:33 Or Pyro, or whatever 2006-04-11 22:32:53 they can enter again 2006-04-11 22:33:10 and if they are not competeing gainst this person they will win from the lack of gaming in that round 2006-04-11 22:33:18 if you understand that 2006-04-11 22:33:32 M:Kaotika: I highly reccomend that everybody read Emmanuel's comments - I think you'll find them highly relevant to this discussion. * http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Commentary * http://wiki.atitd.net/tale2/Mysterious_Altar/Further_Commentary * 2006-04-11 22:33:42 M:TheMazeEcho: I've been entering lvl1 beetle for months, and no win. I don't blame the voters, I try to better my beetles... 2006-04-11 22:33:42 nods 2006-04-11 22:34:02 yes TME and is it fun to know your beetles are crap compared to everone elses? 2006-04-11 22:34:33 F:Deeva: oh, now we get to the heart of it, honesty is evil now? 2006-04-11 22:34:34 F:Calixes: it pushes me to work harder. i don't begrudge anyone when their work is better than mine. 2006-04-11 22:34:42 M:TheMazeEcho: I personnaly think some of mine are crap, as soon as the beetles are revealed 2006-04-11 22:34:43 F:Deeva: dude, i dont know about anyone else, but i'll tell you this much... 2006-04-11 22:34:47 Deeva its always been said the truth hurts 2006-04-11 22:35:01 but the point is is that fun? 2006-04-11 22:35:15 people tell white lies all the time in life, its acceptable 2006-04-11 22:35:15 F:blondie: wait and hope the next in line for oracle has good art... 2006-04-11 22:35:15 F:Deeva: if my stuff sucks, id prefer to KNOW that 2006-04-11 22:35:16 F:Deeva: its fun to get it RIGHT 2006-04-11 22:35:27 F:Deeva: it took me 4.5 months to pass buggas 2006-04-11 22:35:52 thats alright deeva, im not saying you should game and not tell the person you dont like their stuff 2006-04-11 22:36:06 ass i said above i still tell my freinds/family theirs stuff sucks but i vote for it 2006-04-11 22:36:16 F:Calixes: amen, D. 2006-04-11 22:36:17 F:Deeva: i hid mine from my guildies 2006-04-11 22:36:18 F:Deeva: they never saw poor gomez before i finally passed 2006-04-11 22:36:31 M:FransGeerts: Zat would it be fun 2 pass every test at once.. no competition there.. just aplly 2006-04-11 22:36:31 F:Deeva: so you tell them the truth, but lie to the rest of egypt? 2006-04-11 22:36:31 F:Deeva: thats weird, man 2006-04-11 22:36:55 For me to pass the Riddle of the Spihinx was Important to me but not to all of you, because it was one of the few tests that really suits my abilities. I'm glad that I beat the Oracle candidate to it, though I wish her luck 2006-04-11 22:36:56 but frans, you would never know unless someone has the cold hart to tell you they are gamming your test 2006-04-11 22:37:02 M:FransGeerts: just like in real live.. u can't b best at everything.. 2006-04-11 22:37:05 deeva 2006-04-11 22:37:13 M:FransGeerts: we all got strength's and weaknesses.. and that's why we need each other.. helping each other out 2006-04-11 22:37:15 the vote is to show you waqnt this to win, not that you say it is good 2006-04-11 22:37:26 exactly my pont Frans! 2006-04-11 22:37:40 F:Calixes: basically, if you're playing this game solely because you want to pass tests, you're probably playing the wrong game. it's not really structured for that. 2006-04-11 22:37:53 what is it structured for 2006-04-11 22:37:53 ? 2006-04-11 22:38:25 F:Deeva: "the" oracle candidate? 2006-04-11 22:38:26 F:Deeva: there are multiple candidates for oracle in thought, are there not? 2006-04-11 22:38:26 F:Calixes: that's where your argument fails for me, Z. my vote is *only* for the merit of the piece. the pass is irrelevant. 2006-04-11 22:38:37 F:Wuqensta: I don't vote for things having "I want this to win" - I vote them according to if I like of the art or no - nothing to do with "winning or losing". 2006-04-11 22:39:06 but if we all voted for the one we want to win, then we are not lying are we? 2006-04-11 22:39:11 F:Deeva: indeed 2006-04-11 22:39:13 yes Deeva 2006-04-11 22:39:33 and if we voted all their puzzles monumental then they all have a standing chance 2006-04-11 22:39:45 We can support people by voting often and voting honest, not just for our friends but for anonymous contestants 2006-04-11 22:39:57 F:Deeva: how about if we vote for the WORK 2006-04-11 22:39:57 F:Deeva: not the author? 2006-04-11 22:39:58 F:Calixes: i don't vote based on what i want to win, Z. that's what you're missing. 2006-04-11 22:39:58 F:Deeva: indeed 2006-04-11 22:40:17 F:Deeva: why even look to see who owns a thing? 2006-04-11 22:40:19 M:FransGeerts: agrees with NPK 2006-04-11 22:40:19 F:Deeva: just play it, or look at it, and then vote... 2006-04-11 22:40:22 F:Deeva: ownership is irrelevant 2006-04-11 22:40:23 but why support anonomous people if we CAN vote for our frends, we are friends with people because we like them no? and we want to help them with stuff? why not then?! 2006-04-11 22:40:32 F:Calixes: Deeva, that's tantamount to being logical. how dare you suggest it. =) 2006-04-11 22:40:49 i dont Deeva, but i spacificly vote on my friends high 2006-04-11 22:41:04 M:FransGeerts: we can help pll .by letting others know where 2 vote.. how they vote is their choice 2006-04-11 22:41:04 F:Calixes: because it's the piece that's important, Z. not the creator. 2006-04-11 22:41:08 F:blondie: actually, if you vote something your friends make and it's bad, not sure that's helping them, in the end 2006-04-11 22:41:10 If you want to reward your friends, tell em they're SOOO good-looking! 2006-04-11 22:41:20 im sorry if you dont aprove if you are my friend, but touch luck ive already done it and you cant stop me 2006-04-11 22:41:43 but this is the way id prefer to reward them 2006-04-11 22:42:02 how not blondie? if how good they rae is irrelivant, then well its irrelivant 2006-04-11 22:42:17 F:Calixes: ...which is why i didn't publish the location of any of my Art projects until Deo pushed the issue, Z. if no one knows where it is, it's hard to game. 2006-04-11 22:42:43 :) but if i stubmle across it i look to see if its a friends 2006-04-11 22:42:59 if you dont post the location it doesnt stop me from stumbling upon it 2006-04-11 22:43:13 F:Calixes: i can't stop gaming from happening. i can only limit my participation. 2006-04-11 22:43:26 it only stops honest voters from having a large chance of findin it 2006-04-11 22:43:31 yes 2006-04-11 22:44:49 F:Calixes: limiting *all* voters, really. i only work in the boonies. 2006-04-11 22:44:58 F:blondie: lol, that sounds real logical 2006-04-11 22:45:18 F:Calixes: it's perfectly logical if your goal isn't to pass the test. =) 2006-04-11 22:45:24 well blondie, if how good they are is irrelivant in the vote, then its irelivent how it helps them 2006-04-11 22:45:33 fair enough Calixes 2006-04-11 22:45:42 F:blondie: but it should be relevant... 2006-04-11 22:45:54 but people have problems with gaming because people dont pass because someone is being selected above others 2006-04-11 22:46:09 by if it isnt blondie thats what im trying to point out 2006-04-11 22:51:11 anything? 2006-04-11 22:51:31 Some of this concern is unnecessary. There may be fewer Art and Thought followers but someone will pass all Thought tests soon. 2006-04-11 22:51:52 yes 2006-04-11 22:51:54 And I don't know the scorecard on Art, but I daresay there are contenders 2006-04-11 22:52:04 but you need so many of all ranks to build the monument 2006-04-11 22:52:15 4 masters last time i checked was the highest 2006-04-11 22:53:07 M:TheMazeEcho: with the rmaining passes left, you won't get enough people, even through gaming, so point is moot 2006-04-11 22:53:18 maybe so 2006-04-11 22:53:24 but it wont stop it happening again next telling 2006-04-11 22:53:37 M:TheMazeEcho: so we'll "loose" anyway 2006-04-11 22:53:40 thats doable. The citizenry can be encouraged to vote the Tests 2006-04-11 22:53:52 yes 2006-04-11 22:53:56 M:TheMazeEcho: at least I would have got the most fun of T2 :) 2006-04-11 22:54:15 The tests themselves and the horribly complicated scoring systems could be reformed 2006-04-11 22:54:22 but the diversity of art, everone has different tastes it may be that even this telling the lack of passes is because of people voting to much 2006-04-11 22:54:38 i believe the peer judging system is being used next telling for all of those types 2006-04-11 22:56:43 F:Calixes: i think the peer system is great. it's much more fair. and if we can't produce an Oracle under that system, then Pharaoh will have to look at how passing is structured if he wants a monument. no need for us to be dishonest. 2006-04-11 22:56:43 M:TheMazeEcho: even peer judging is not a very good system 2006-04-11 22:57:08 no he will not 2006-04-11 22:57:13 M:TheMazeEcho: for those that really want to pass, they have no idea if the art had enough voters 2006-04-11 22:57:15 it doesnt matter to him really if we win or not 2006-04-11 22:57:25 M:TheMazeEcho: maybe something like what's used for beetles could be added 2006-04-11 22:57:40 F:Calixes: if he wants a monument, he will. if he doesn't care, neither do i. =) 2006-04-11 22:57:55 M:TheMazeEcho: to help you decide if you want to advertise your stuff more 2006-04-11 22:57:59 so do you care if he does? 2006-04-11 22:58:07 F:Calixes: nope. =) 2006-04-11 22:58:21 well it doesnt matter whtehr he cares or not then 2006-04-11 22:58:22 The "3 shall pass weekly" thing has bummed the heck out of me - if one is trendy, one waits for ever, and if one is not trendy, it often becomes impossible to pass some tests at all. 2006-04-11 22:58:36 he doesnt have to look at the passings if he doesnt care 2006-04-11 22:58:53 can i just point out, he is paid either way 2006-04-11 22:58:58 F:Calixes: it matters, Z. he pretty much determines our construct. if he wants a monument, he'll make it more attainable. 2006-04-11 22:59:24 but its not wherther he wants one or not, its whether we can make one or not 2006-04-11 22:59:52 if its doable, we'll do it 2006-04-11 23:00:01 F:Calixes: if he's simply more interested in the social implications of the construct, then we're feeding him now. either way, it's irrelevant to my gameplay. 2006-04-11 23:00:03 it is doable thi telling 2006-04-11 23:00:06 it wont be done 2006-04-11 23:00:16 F:Calixes: you're missing my point, Z. if he wants a monument, he'll make it such that we can produce one. 2006-04-11 23:00:31 yes but that is just being selfidh Calixes, what about the others that the fun is in winning? 2006-04-11 23:01:05 hehe :) but it doesnt matter to him if he gets one or not, if we are paying that is all really mattters (i dont mean to insult him that way) 2006-04-11 23:01:10 well thanks for letting me respond Zatarg, I know that your motives are pure of heart, and goodbye 2006-04-11 23:01:26 erm? 2006-04-11 23:01:55 F:Calixes: i don't think he really cares about whether it's perceived as selfish. we're playing in /his/ sandbox. 2006-04-11 23:02:14 exactly! 2006-04-11 23:02:42 so if he doesnt care, then he wont make it easier, spoiling the fun of those who want to win because so many people wont help each other directly 2006-04-11 23:03:21 F:Calixes: still missing my point there, Z. if he wants it to happen, he'll make it possible. 2006-04-11 23:03:33 but if he doesnt care? 2006-04-11 23:03:49 M:Kaotika: Straw Man, Calixes. He's not interested. 2006-04-11 23:03:53 he is being paid whether we win or not 2006-04-11 23:04:23 M:Kaotika: If we lose, we lose. He's hardly going to force a win on us. 2006-04-11 23:05:14 F:Calixes: i'm not arguing that he cares. i'm arguing that if he does, he'll make it more likely. i don't care either way. =) 2006-04-11 23:05:47 you can have an if statement with only one posibility its a booleon 2006-04-11 23:05:55 cant* 2006-04-11 23:06:40 F:Calixes: and yet my statement is still logical and possible. amazing. 2006-04-11 23:06:54 M:NoparKing: "if he does" implies "if he don't" 2006-04-11 23:06:57 yes but you cant argue with if, if you dont present the other half of the argument 2006-04-11 23:07:52 F:Calixes: semantics juggling. i have to get back to worship monument stuff. i trust you got what you were after. ;) 2006-04-11 23:08:08 i did 2006-04-11 23:08:21 but if you argue if he does, you have to be prepared to aregue if he doesnt 2006-04-11 23:08:24 like NoparKing said 2006-04-11 23:08:24 F:Calixes: have fun, folks. =) 2006-04-11 23:10:43 as Calixes has been the only one arguing really in the last while i will say this; 2006-04-11 23:11:06 please, either admit that i am correct, or disprove me 2006-04-11 23:13:39 M:TheMazeEcho: Z, you don't accept our point when we try to disprove you, so what's the point to try further..? 2006-04-11 23:14:09 i do accept your points, but i disprove them 2006-04-11 23:14:25 try me 2006-04-11 23:16:01 M:TheMazeEcho: how can you say that you help your friends by voting high on their crap? that's lying to them, being untrue to them, so you fail them as friends 2006-04-11 23:16:28 i tell them that their stuff is crap 2006-04-11 23:16:35 so therefore im not lying to them 2006-04-11 23:17:01 M:TheMazeEcho: the whole point of this game is the cooperative mode, based on friendship 2006-04-11 23:17:09 s 2006-04-11 23:17:13 yes 2006-04-11 23:17:15 M:TheMazeEcho: if you are only looking for wins, go play other games, that advertise winning as the main point 2006-04-11 23:18:13 im not looking for the win, i couldnt care less, i play for the people, but someone has to speak for the ones who have to hide as the fact that they get fun from winning is disowned by society 2006-04-11 23:18:24 (actualy i play for the arguments more :D) 2006-04-11 23:19:05 M:TheMazeEcho: fo me, friendship is only based on mutual truth, and even if truth hurts, I prefer the truth any time 2006-04-11 23:19:55 that is fair, but if you are being truthful to your friend that you are only voting for them because they are your friend and their stuff us crap you are not being untruthful are you? 2006-04-11 23:20:02 M:TheMazeEcho: I don't want someone telling me my stuff is crap if they voted high on it, that only shows they are untru to themselves 2006-04-11 23:20:02 M:TheMazeEcho: that's even worse 2006-04-11 23:20:31 how does it show they are untrue to themselves? it only shows they want you to win 2006-04-11 23:20:47 M:TheMazeEcho: If I think it's crap, I vote for crap, even if it's my friends' 2006-04-11 23:20:52 bing untrue to themselves would be telling themselves it is good when the know it isnt, no? 2006-04-11 23:21:20 TME you cant accuse me of not acceptiong your point if you keep making the same point 2006-04-11 23:22:01 M:Shadovv: In my opinion that's like them telling me that my stuff is crap and they feel i don't have the ability to make it better, so they are just gonna vote high on it so i can go ahead and pass. 2006-04-11 23:22:02 M:TheMazeEcho: being untrue is not having your action meet your words 2006-04-11 23:22:22 but your action would meet your words 2006-04-11 23:22:31 yes shadocc 2006-04-11 23:22:34 shadovv* 2006-04-11 23:23:09 M:TheMazeEcho: no, if you vote high but think it's crap and tell your firend it's crap, you don't 2006-04-11 23:23:13 wait 2006-04-11 23:23:16 no i read that wrong 2006-04-11 23:23:40 noone is saying you cant do any better, its just that they still want to you pass 2006-04-11 23:24:20 but if you tell you friend, or at least if they know you are voting becayse they are your friend its not untrue 2006-04-11 23:24:59 M:TheMazeEcho: by telling me it'scrap and voting low, they help me better myself 2006-04-11 23:25:02 M:TheMazeEcho: because I would try to make a new and better art piece 2006-04-11 23:25:06 M:Shadovv: well, personally, that's the way i would take it, and to be honest, you may mean it that way, but that doesn't mean that the other person isn't meaning that. 2006-04-11 23:25:28 F:Wuqensta: IMO it'd piss me off if someone ranked me high just because they know and/or like me and not because my handiwork was worth it... 2006-04-11 23:26:00 as another point 2006-04-11 23:26:03 F:ellorin: me too 2006-04-11 23:26:31 noone is asking them to game YOR tests anyways, although i can see that may be irrelivent due to majority 2006-04-11 23:27:29 so you would pass up the chance of a high rank, and helping people who do want to win, just so you can put your morals before logic and selflessness 2006-04-11 23:27:44 F:Kuviena: the point of passing a test isn't to pass, but to show that you have the skill to pass 2006-04-11 23:28:05 if you see taht as the point hten fair enough 2006-04-11 23:28:07 but not everyone does 2006-04-11 23:28:08 F:Calixes: your brand of logic is no more valid than the other side's, Z. 2006-04-11 23:28:52 i believe it is, naturaly i think im right, thats why i started this discussion so i can prove to you all that i am, or so you can prove to us that we arent 2006-04-11 23:29:05 hrm 2006-04-11 23:29:12 ment to be me and and i again at the end there sorry 2006-04-11 23:29:26 M:TheMazeEcho: but you didn't prove you were right 2006-04-11 23:29:40 F:Calixes: the fatal word there is 'believe'. this is all rather moot, because it boils down to pure opinion. 2006-04-11 23:29:56 M:TheMazeEcho: indeed 2006-04-11 23:30:05 it is impossible to prove a theeory of ANY kind only disprove it, if you cannot disprove it, it is logical to asume it true 2006-04-11 23:30:20 no 2006-04-11 23:30:29 i believe i am correct 2006-04-11 23:30:32 if i am 2006-04-11 23:30:46 then whethere i believe it or not is irrelivent it is correct 2006-04-11 23:30:48 if not 2006-04-11 23:30:58 then its still irrelivent its incorrect 2006-04-11 23:31:05 opinion is not an issue here 2006-04-11 23:31:23 well 2006-04-11 23:31:32 F:Calixes: in a binary system, yes. unfortunately, there is a veritable tree of possibilities here. again, moot. =) 2006-04-11 23:31:36 actualy the point here is to change eitehr my, or your opinion 2006-04-11 23:31:49 how does that change whether it is correct or not? 2006-04-11 23:32:08 F:Calixes: you're assuming that only one view is correct...that's how. 2006-04-11 23:32:12 M:FransGeerts: still think the question is why we wanna play the game.. 2 end the endgame..or have fun.. or try to do both by supporting ppl 2006-04-11 23:32:20 if something is only half correct it is incorrect 2006-04-11 23:32:42 no i am not 2006-04-11 23:32:48 F:Calixes: that's why it's moot. =) 2006-04-11 23:32:51 F:ellorin: The friends issue is important I agree Zatarg but there's nothing immoral in your friends assisting u to create works of art with advice but it should be a fair vote at the end of the day 2006-04-11 23:33:00 but if my view is the correct one, it disproves yours ergo yours is incorrect 2006-04-11 23:33:17 ellorin: no 2006-04-11 23:33:25 there is nothing immoral yes 2006-04-11 23:33:38 and maybe it is immoral to say that gaming is acceptable 2006-04-11 23:33:49 (i dont belive it is so then it my view to you is ammoral) 2006-04-11 23:33:50 F:Calixes: wrong. again, you're assuming that only one is correct. in something so subjective, there's never just one correct answer. 2006-04-11 23:33:55 M:FransGeerts: we r never gonna stop ppl voting for a friend in favour of anything.. we just have 2 accept it 2006-04-11 23:34:20 exactly Frans, if we cant stop it why not embrace it 2006-04-11 23:34:27 Calixes my arguent is difnitive 2006-04-11 23:34:58 if we are going to loose the telling because there is a lack of desciples then it is fair to game the descipline 2006-04-11 23:35:09 that is single and difinitive 2006-04-11 23:35:26 F:Calixes: what it boils down to is that we've got opposing views. i say further arguing (at least between us) is approaching the ridiculous, because i'm not going to budge, and we're just getting into needlessly complicated tripe now. 2006-04-11 23:36:00 very true 2006-04-11 23:36:37 but however, if i were to submit a point that completely disproves your views and there is no way around it, you will know im right, you may not admit it but you will know it 2006-04-11 23:36:47 M:FransGeerts: doesn't agree on embrasing it.. but it's happening if we wan't it or not 2006-04-11 23:36:49 F:Calixes: that being the case, i'm really gonna shut up about it now because we're getting really boring. =) 2006-04-11 23:36:54 Pride im sure will not let most of you admit im right 2006-04-11 23:37:04 whereas if you prove me wrong i will i assure you 2006-04-11 23:37:42 well Frans you cannot get on at me for gaming ifyou cannot stop it (you collectivly there) 2006-04-11 23:37:55 actualy Calixes this is the most fun ive had in a while :) 2006-04-11 23:38:03 F:Wuqensta: lol, good luck in trying to that Z. 2006-04-11 23:38:20 trying what exactly? 2006-04-11 23:39:31 M:FransGeerts: why r u both making a stand.. let's try 2 meet in the midle 2006-04-11 23:40:02 what would be the middle Frans? 2006-04-11 23:40:53 M:Shadovv: keep in mind also that if someone really believes they are right, then even if the other person's view prooves them wrong, they are just gonna say it proves nothing and the argument will go on forever. 2006-04-11 23:41:00 yes 2006-04-11 23:41:07 but they will know the other is right 2006-04-11 23:41:16 (i promise you prove me wrong i will admit it) 2006-04-11 23:41:21 and that will affect their actions 2006-04-11 23:42:09 M:FransGeerts: i do.. but it sounds like we have a standoff... 2006-04-11 23:42:10 M:Shadovv: lol, that's my point, you believe what you believe so nothing anyone can ever say will ever prove "YOU" 2006-04-11 23:42:11 M:Shadovv: wrong 2006-04-11 23:42:11 M:FransGeerts: we might get a agreement which everyone can live with 2006-04-11 23:42:28 :) 2006-04-11 23:42:33 M:FransGeerts: all i'm trying 2 tell 2006-04-11 23:42:33 shadovv 2006-04-11 23:42:33 M:FransGeerts: this way we're goin nowhere 2006-04-11 23:42:57 there is now way i can prove to anyone i will admit defeat but the best i can do is if you prove me wrong i will admit it sorry 2006-04-11 23:43:26 Frans: if anyone can come up with an agreement, i welcome them too 2006-04-11 23:46:55 M:FransGeerts: how does it sound if we support each other by voting honoustly.... and help ppl to tell around where 2 vote for instance 2006-04-11 23:47:32 because from what ive seen, most people DO vote around, its that fact that art passes are so spread out 2006-04-11 23:47:49 because we all have different tastes 2006-04-11 23:55:20 ok again; either disprove me, or let it be known the view i presented is correct. 2006-04-11 23:55:37 M:FransGeerts: i'm off..nn everyone.. i hope u get 2 agree 2006-04-11 23:55:49 night Frans 2006-04-11 23:57:54 Hello all 2006-04-11 23:58:03 hi Jem 2006-04-11 23:58:22 Well I jsut got the results for the Body Monument test 2006-04-11 23:58:44 We had 34 people only who voted 2006-04-11 23:59:14 The winner for our next tellings Body test is Zintwana and The Oyster Catcher 2006-04-11 23:59:28 If you would like to see the results you can go to the wiki for them 2006-04-11 23:59:30 oo 2006-04-11 23:59:43 well i shall leave my argument be just now :) If you wish to, disprove me, please chat me :) for it would be wise just now to agree i am correct 2006-04-12 00:00:31 goodnight 2006-04-12 00:01:35 The votes stand as 28 (82%) for Oyster and 6 (18%) for Contemplation. 2006-04-12 00:06:21 **************************************** 2006-04-12 00:06:26 Good evening, Egypt. We have a new guild (Architecture Test Discussion Forum) set up for folks to discuss ideas for the T3 Architecture test. The GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. Please come join the guild and bring your grand Architecture ideas!! 2006-04-12 00:06:31 ***************************************** 2006-04-12 00:08:54 JemGirl: Also I need everyone who is a body person to go sign up at the monument site and apply so we can build this thing 2006-04-12 00:09:04 JemGirl: Site is located at 1376 715 2006-04-12 00:10:21 JemGirl: The only spots left now are prentice and student so please go now and sgin up so you can be on the monument it doesn't matter what rank you are I can get you in but it will be at these low ranks now 2006-04-12 00:10:49 JemGirl: I am sorry if they are low but I had limited space in each rank 2006-04-12 00:11:35 M:kaayru: Same for Lead :) CotS 5084 -1698 ;) 2006-04-12 00:11:35 F:Deeva: i'll be proud to serve in whatever rank is needed, jem :) 2006-04-12 00:13:16 JemGirl: oops I mean 1346 715 for site coords 2006-04-12 00:13:17 JemGirl: ack 2006-04-12 03:54:42 CaveCub: Hello Egypt :) .. The Level 1 Beetle garden in RSO needs just 2 more judges please come out and vote :) 2006-04-12 05:19:20 M:Bhoth: RSO has finished voting, but ND level 3 garden needs 29 more votes 2006-04-12 05:19:23 M:singh: *** SPAM ALERT *** 2006-04-12 05:19:24 M:singh: ** Teach Singh some Acro Please - He needs HS - LS and PW ** 2006-04-12 05:19:27 M:singh: ** Meet Him in Karnak , near cs by his Karnak Hegemon Table** 2006-04-12 05:19:29 M:singh: ** you may vote for him as hegemon as well, please ** 2006-04-12 05:19:30 M:singh: *** END SPAM *** 2006-04-12 05:19:35 M:singh: ** I'll be standing by here in KArnak all day - thank you for trying ** 2006-04-12 14:26:58 F:JemGirl: Hello all 2006-04-12 14:27:00 F:JemGirl: Right now Body Monument only has Student spots left so if you are a body person please come up and appy we need only 52 more people so we can build this 2006-04-12 14:27:09 F:JemGirl: Thanks all see you later 2006-04-12 19:30:54 Teao: -------------- 2006-04-12 19:31:12 Teao: In case someone doesn't know, here is a player map at http://www.frappr.com/atitd 2006-04-12 22:37:00 TpcT: -------------------------- 2006-04-12 22:38:48 TpcT: LEADERSHIP: 4 Peret IV is about 25% complete. Those I've heard are trying to pass the Test of Patronage so far are Barhi, Asheara, Sedelyan, Eighteen, Psychodelica, kuupid, Jezebella, and Zatarg. If you or someone you know is trying and not on the list, please let me know. :) 2006-04-12 22:40:27 TpcT: Sorry, Zatarg isn't running this month. 2006-04-12 22:43:27 TpcT: Wuqensta is also trying this month. 2006-04-12 22:54:00 Gemstar and MAMTeles are also trying. :) 2006-04-13 02:46:38 F:Anankha: ~~**~~ SPAM ~**~ Wonderful Fountain of the Obelisk now open! 1135, -2725 in LN north of the CS on the East branch of the Nile. ~*~ END SPAM ~*~ 2006-04-13 02:47:58 Rhyddereh: --------------------------- 2006-04-13 02:48:04 Rhyddereh: Greetings Egypt 2006-04-13 02:48:34 Rhyddereh: Looking back on the last two years I go through a few emotions . . . . 2006-04-13 02:49:11 Rhyddereh: from remembering my time here as a newbie in Our Grandfathers Age 2006-04-13 02:49:23 Rhyddereh: Making my first batch of charcoal (shudder) 2006-04-13 02:49:52 Rhyddereh: Meeting lots of people who would figure greatly in my outlook here 2006-04-13 02:50:21 Rhyddereh: They helped shape what I stand for 2006-04-13 02:51:11 Rhyddereh: Though many are gone . . their memory lives on in how I value things, how I view actions of myself and other citizens 2006-04-13 02:51:30 Rhyddereh: Then I look at Egypt today . . . 2006-04-13 02:52:04 Rhyddereh: And I'm filled with great sadness at what Egypt has become. 2006-04-13 02:52:59 Rhyddereh: There were the exception back then but or the most part people were here to better Egypt and in doing so bettering themselves 2006-04-13 02:53:28 Rhyddereh: For some reason I do not see that as being the norm anymore 2006-04-13 02:53:45 Rhyddereh: the excemption has become the norm . . . what I saw as the norm has become the exception 2006-04-13 02:54:44 Rhyddereh: The monuments should stand for perfection, perfections of our society, not of self. 2006-04-13 02:55:33 Rhyddereh: I am seeing the ranks being filled with people who have placed themselves over others way too often for me to consider them as "leaders" 2006-04-13 02:57:51 Rhyddereh: as such . . . I cannot in good conscience place my name on said monument. 2006-04-13 03:00:21 Rhyddereh: I will be taking my leave of my home here in Egypt, keeping my memories of better times. Should the morals of those leaders doing the monument change, I will be back to place my name on a monument that stands for what I have always stood for. 2006-04-13 03:01:34 Rhyddereh: I thank you for your time in listening and I hope that many of you will do some introspection soon. I miss what I remember of Egypt. Hopefully it wasn't a dream and that place actually existed. 2006-04-13 03:01:42 Rhyddereh: For then it can exist again. 2006-04-13 03:08:37 Kir: Greetings 2006-04-13 03:09:31 For some of you, that may have sounded like sour grapes, unhappy noises from one who is not the king of this place 2006-04-13 03:10:04 To me, that was the sound that things are not as they could be 2006-04-13 03:10:42 Kir: To some that may have sounded like sour grapes 2006-04-13 03:11:03 Kir: A man complaining that things did not turn out as planned 2006-04-13 03:11:22 Kir: To be sure, he is disapointed 2006-04-13 03:12:01 Kir: To me, that was an alarm clock ringing 2006-04-13 03:12:24 Kir: A Time has come to pause and reflect 2006-04-13 03:12:43 Kir: Have we done what we hoped? Have we reached our goals? 2006-04-13 03:12:59 Kir: What were the costs? Did the ends justify? 2006-04-13 03:14:06 Kir: I am sorry to see that this telling did not become what Rhyddereh hoped it would be. 2006-04-13 03:15:57 Kir: If anyone wishes to coment, please use this radio station as a way to share your message 2006-04-13 03:17:09 Kir: Egypt will choose it's own path, but you are a part of that choice 2006-04-13 03:17:24 Kir: If you got what you seeked, come, share. 2006-04-13 03:17:48 Kir: If you wanted one thing and got another, that story has value as well 2006-04-13 03:19:43 Kir: And if you care not about the past, then you must care not for the future 2006-04-13 03:20:07 Kir: I will be watching Egypt future, it will be interesting, of that I am sure 2006-04-13 03:20:20 Kir: Thank you for listening, Egypt 2006-04-13 03:33:16 Rhyddereh: I would like to add something I might not have made clear . . . the choice in Monument Leader is not why I'm upset, but rather those who wish, and are not hindered in standing beside those who conduct themselves morally in all they do. 2006-04-13 03:48:33 Rhyddereh: If you have any specific questions . . . feel free to chat me . . . I'm zeroing out my account only and will log in later tonight in order to satisfy any curiosity people may have. 2006-04-13 03:52:09 M:Balthazarr: ******** Hello folks... just catching up on E!, there have been some comments and I was not paying attention and did not release them in a timely manner... so to understand the full meaning please scroll up and read the comments of the last hour 2006-04-13 03:52:19 M:Yendor: I'm relatively new to the game, but to me leadership is founding The Goods, or managing an aqueduct line. Not backstabbing your way through some tests 2006-04-13 03:52:22 M:Gniss: for those of us who are relatively new...can you be more specific on what is wrong and what should be different? 2006-04-13 03:52:27 F:Deeva: Kir, give a sister time to type, will ya? :P 2006-04-13 03:52:29 M:Blogmul: I can just say one thing... If your conscience tells you something is wrong, just don't sign off the monument... You'll be accepting gaming and cheatign otherwise... I have no issues with it... If my conscience tells me not to sign... I don't sign. Don't fear "losing" this telling... We are just laying the path for a better, more righteous telling for our grandchildren, sending the message that gaming/cheating is not tolerated and will not be worth it 2006-04-13 03:52:59 M:Karkajouh: why don't you say who you are talking about? 2006-04-13 03:53:04 M:Karkajouh: you seem to send serious accusations here, why don't you stay public? 2006-04-13 03:53:46 M:Balthazarr: **** the comments between the stars **** were made in about tha last 30 minutes 2006-04-13 04:11:46 M:singh: ** oh, and i am proud if it ... ** 2006-04-13 04:12:18 M:Balthazarr: Congratz BTW :) 2006-04-13 05:35:08 Annu: will you acro with me Macphisto 2006-04-13 05:35:24 MacPhisto: sure 2006-04-13 07:12:43 M:kaayru: === 2006-04-13 07:12:54 M:kaayru: Greetings Egypt. 2006-04-13 07:16:29 M:kaayru: The Monument of Leadership is temporarily closed for applying. As you probly know, there are some conflicts about the chosen location, some people's rank and the test proposal. That's why we'll have a discussion to decide of the continuation. 2006-04-13 07:33:30 M:kaayru: It will be on the Monument of Leadership guild chanel. If you want to take part, join apply (Red Sea Oasis @ 2391 2273). I think we'll start this friday 6am UTC and will last all the week end. 2006-04-13 07:38:20 M:kaayru: Eek, my bad. 2006-04-13 07:38:29 M:kaayru: That's 6 PM*** 2006-04-13 11:50:03 Hasani: ************************************************** 2006-04-13 11:50:09 Hasani: Hello Egypt. The Architecture Monument is going up in LN!! Come on out to [ ] in LN to join the monument. All needed monument materials have already been gathered. All you need to do is come join and add your name to the monument. We also have a guild for discussing Architecture test ideas. That GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. So trot out to LN to join the monument and visit RSO to join the Arch Test Discussion Forum. We look forward to seeing you! 2006-04-13 11:50:17 Hasani: ************************************************** 2006-04-13 11:50:48 Hasani: **3060, -4044 (arch monument site) 2006-04-13 17:08:24 Bonjour tous 2006-04-13 17:09:48 pour une fois je ne vais pas faire d'effort de traduction pour vous parler 2006-04-13 17:10:04 je vais vous parlez en bon franais 2006-04-13 17:10:55 depuis que CT et Kaayru on t lus Oracle du monument Lead , nous avons beaucoup de problme 2006-04-13 17:11:27 je constate que certaine personnes n'apprcie pas que ce monument soit construit par des Franais 2006-04-13 17:11:39 alors que nous sommes des joueur comme les autre 2006-04-13 17:12:33 cela fait 2ans que je joue sur atitd ,je me suis fait beaucoup d'ami (on dirais une campagne pour les DP) lol 2006-04-13 17:13:11 beaucoup d'ami qui ne parle pas la mme langue que moi , j'ai un traducteur pour communiquer et tout vas bien 2006-04-13 17:13:49 je regrette qu'il y est des personne qui soit contre nous pour la construction de ce monument 2006-04-13 17:15:05 je regrette mme de voir ou la Connerie Humaine peut aller :((( C'est un jeu ,o nous devrions tous nous entendre et jouer ensemble en HARMONIE 2006-04-13 17:15:19 et non se tirer dans les pate comme certain le fon 2006-04-13 17:16:20 Question GAMING qui dans ce jeu n'a jamais VOTER MONUMENTAL les epreuve de l'art de leur ami ? 2006-04-13 17:16:38 personne tout le monde la eu fait un jour ou l autre* 2006-04-13 17:17:44 Le Monument Lead seras construit CHEZ LES TEUBAY A COTS voil , que cela plaise o non ,a seras comme cela.........///////// 2006-04-13 17:17:59 merci ***************** une amie 2006-04-13 17:25:06 salut 2006-04-13 17:25:27 dans ce jeu nous sommes tres pres de la vrai vie 2006-04-13 17:26:49 chez vos vous favorisez vos amis, votre famille et vos voisins ,alors pourquoit acuser des gents de faire du gaming alors que c'est dans la nature humaine !! 2006-04-13 17:28:20 le jeu entier est baser la dessus , l'entraide dans la guilde pour la faire progeser et faire progesser certains membre plus que d'autres , 2006-04-13 17:28:48 l'entraide entre les guildes ... 2006-04-13 17:30:11 le but est de gagner ou de faire gagner cetaines personnes ( comme IRL) 2006-04-13 17:31:08 donc reprennons les deux premier oracles de commandement sont kaayru et cardinaltarod 2006-04-13 17:31:46 donc kaa s'occupera de construire et cardi nous prette sont gazon :) 2006-04-13 17:33:15 et si cela ne plais pas a certaine perssone , ils n'ont qu'a en faire un autre, je ne pense pas que ce soit impossible 2006-04-13 17:33:29 sur ce bises a tous et toutes 2006-04-13 18:01:20 F:JemGirl: BODY MONUMENT: Please come up and appy if your a body person we only need 33 more students so we can get ready to build this Monument. Also The build date for this weekend has been Cancelled due to needed more people and the Easter Holiday. Rescheduled till Next Sunday at 2pm edt, so I hope you all can make it. 2006-04-13 18:01:39 F:JemGirl: THAT IS APRIL 23RD AT 2PM EDT 2006-04-13 19:14:43 kaayru: === 2006-04-13 19:14:47 kaayru: Greetings :) 2006-04-13 19:14:53 Deeva: greetings egypt 2006-04-13 19:15:01 Deeva: now, i bet people are thinking... 2006-04-13 19:15:09 Deeva: kaa and deeva hanging out together? whats this?! 2006-04-13 19:15:18 kaayru: lol 2006-04-13 19:15:22 kaayru: Yes, we are friend ! 2006-04-13 19:15:28 Deeva: how can this be? 2006-04-13 19:15:42 Deeva: deeva does not support the monument, kaa is leading it! 2006-04-13 19:15:47 Deeva: this is no trick of the eyes 2006-04-13 19:16:00 Deeva: before I was a sage of leadership and a DP 2006-04-13 19:16:03 Deeva: i was kaayru's friend 2006-04-13 19:16:11 kaayru: You're still ! 2006-04-13 19:16:15 Deeva: and before he was an oracle and leading the monument, he was mine 2006-04-13 19:16:23 Deeva: this never changed 2006-04-13 19:17:04 Deeva: it is true, that I do not support the monument at present, that I have substantial disagreement with several aspects concerning it 2006-04-13 19:17:21 Deeva: but it was never, in any world you can imagine, related to the nationality of ANY participant 2006-04-13 19:17:44 Deeva: kaayru knows my objections, i feel its appropriate that they remain between he and I 2006-04-13 19:18:27 Deeva: i will start no wars here, i make clear to those people it involves, when i like or dislike something 2006-04-13 19:18:50 Deeva: this is my way of preventing drama and fighting...if an argument becomes public, people take sides 2006-04-13 19:19:46 Deeva: i have always dealt with problems in that manner, even when others would much rather a public row 2006-04-13 19:23:23 i want it known, here and now, that *I* am not an american 2006-04-13 19:23:31 and kaayru is not a frenchman 2006-04-13 19:23:36 we are egyptians, all of us 2006-04-13 19:23:52 nationalism has no place in this game 2006-04-13 19:23:55 Oh discusison moved here ! 2006-04-13 19:24:03 was looking at E! 2006-04-13 19:24:15 pff my bad,... forget... wc... 2006-04-13 19:24:59 Deeva: sorry, kaa, wrong tab, im fired, lol 2006-04-13 19:25:38 Deeva: at any rate, everytime i have seen someone treat another player poorly because they were french, or german, or any other nationality... 2006-04-13 19:26:03 Deeva: i have promptly shoved my wee little foot RIGHT up their ass 2006-04-13 19:26:33 F:Madwife: claps 2006-04-13 19:26:55 Deeva: i know that many other leaders take the same approach, that all are equal and valuable to this community 2006-04-13 19:27:38 Deeva: i may object to parts of the monument, this is true, but kaayru's place of birth has NOTHING to do with it, nor does the birthplace of any other player 2006-04-13 19:27:38 Rhyddereh: Nationality should never be an issue. Unfort. sometimes the language barrier makes it seem like it is though. 2006-04-13 19:28:13 Deeva: if you believe otherwise, you are chosing not to hear an opinion that differs from your own 2006-04-13 19:28:32 Deeva: and instead casting that opinion in a light that makes it easy to disregard 2006-04-13 19:29:30 F:Jezebella: Deeva, I have a question. Didn't you bring up in Lounge before about CT gaming? 2006-04-13 19:30:24 Deeva: No, jezebella, actually, i did NOT 2006-04-13 19:30:30 Deeva: i brought it up to CT, in private 2006-04-13 19:30:41 Deeva: one of CT's friends brought it up in the lounge 2006-04-13 19:30:48 Deeva: and i said nothing about it 2006-04-13 19:31:18 F:Jezebella: ok, isn't The Amazon standing behind you for dp the same as his guild standing behind his tests? 2006-04-13 19:32:49 Rhyddereh: There is a difference between being supported in a test that is all about getting support and getting support in tests that's supposted to test a person. 2006-04-13 19:33:25 F:Jezebella: DP isn't a test that tests a person? that makes no sense to me Rhy. 2006-04-13 19:33:27 Deeva: baring any other questions, i just wanted to make it clear to all, that i have never judged a player by where they live, and that my actions clearly show you the truth of this 2006-04-13 19:33:28 Rhyddereh: To some that's a subtle difference, but to those attempting to do a test in a morally upright manner it's a huge gulf. 2006-04-13 19:34:23 oops, i missed jezebella's second question, sorry 2006-04-13 19:34:44 to asnwer that....no jezebella, DP is a lead test based on public support of a candidate 2006-04-13 19:34:48 M:Kaotika: Deeva makes fun of me because I'm Ginger! 2006-04-13 19:35:11 a puzzle should need no "support" 2006-04-13 19:35:12 kaayru: Jez, I think the amazons don't speak about politics, but well, I'm not into :P 2006-04-13 19:35:16 either its a good one or not 2006-04-13 19:35:20 F:Jezebella: Deeva: all tests are passed because of support of the candidate. 2006-04-13 19:35:28 Rhyddereh: DP tests a persons ability to get support. Thought tests a persons ability to create puzzles. Big difference. 2006-04-13 19:35:37 i passed TOI because i built a really good design, jez 2006-04-13 19:35:39 M:Kaotika: Interesting point, Jez. 2006-04-13 19:35:46 F:Jezebella: other than those we do ourselves, such as cicadas, etc. 2006-04-13 19:35:48 anyone who voted high on my puzzle because of who i am? 2006-04-13 19:35:56 gets my foot in they butt :P 2006-04-13 19:36:20 M:Kaotika: Good job that I never bothered to vote... ;) 2006-04-13 19:36:34 Rhyddereh: since this has turned into a gaming discussion lets go there ;) 2006-04-13 19:36:41 F:Jezebella: and I have seen CT's items, they are also good deigns. but some people want to assume he's gaming. what is the difference between his and yours? 2006-04-13 19:37:28 Rhyddereh: My main beef in plan clear text: The argument that people are gaming on your behaf hold no water if you refuse to speak up against the practice. 2006-04-13 19:37:32 Deeva: lets stop right there...what makes you leap to the conclusion that its an assumption? 2006-04-13 19:37:44 CT re-made TONS of his puzzles because not good enough, I truly think he doesn't game. 2006-04-13 19:38:13 M:TheMazeEcho: Rhyd, you turned it into a gaming discussion, nobody spoke of Thought Tests before you 2006-04-13 19:38:18 M:TheMazeEcho: we were only speaking about Lead tests 2006-04-13 19:38:24 M:BryceCicada: I truely believe that who the person is influences a lot of people's votes on varoius tests. 2006-04-13 19:38:29 M:Toba: Deeva it seems that you are only persecuting CardinalTarod for gaming, who is of course a political rival or yours. There are many other gamers out there, yet I don't see you making a fuss about them. 2006-04-13 19:38:38 M:TheMazeEcho: lead tests are all about 1 player being supported by lots of others 2006-04-13 19:38:41 F:Jezebella: I assume it's an assumption because I have no facts to prove otherwise. 2006-04-13 19:39:01 one at a time...lol 2006-04-13 19:39:10 you assume i've raised no other objections 2006-04-13 19:39:11 that is untrue 2006-04-13 19:39:25 i've objected to the inclusion of several gamers, quite frankly 2006-04-13 19:39:28 as i said, i did so in private 2006-04-13 19:39:35 you've merely assumed otherwise 2006-04-13 19:40:16 and i ask you clearly, if you hear an accusation, do you look at all, or base your reaction on who the person is? 2006-04-13 19:40:32 F:Jezebella: ok, so tell me straight up Deeva, do you think CT games? 2006-04-13 19:40:42 In the past, yes, I believe he did 2006-04-13 19:40:54 i believe his TOI is gamed, and if you want the proof? 2006-04-13 19:40:56 take a look at it 2006-04-13 19:41:09 then take a look at rush hour #21 2006-04-13 19:41:15 then make up your own mind 2006-04-13 19:41:19 Rhyddereh: my personal opinion and why I "assume" he's gaming is the fact that he refuses to speak out on the issue. His passes are EXTREMELY high in scoring, usually with the minimum number of judges, and the score comes down dramatically once passed. 2006-04-13 19:41:34 Just by seing it, you know it's gamed ? 2006-04-13 19:41:45 i know its the exact same as rush hour 21 2006-04-13 19:41:50 Rhyddereh: if this was one test specifically, it could be coincidence 2006-04-13 19:41:59 and when i spoke to CT about it, he didnt seem bothered 2006-04-13 19:42:03 Rhyddereh: across the board? you'd have a hard time convincing me otherwise 2006-04-13 19:42:47 after that, I did some math, and the answers i got back were.....creepy 2006-04-13 19:42:57 CT's scores in thought are 83% higher than ANYONE else 2006-04-13 19:43:00 F:Jezebella: why should he be bothered if he knew it wasn't? 2006-04-13 19:43:01 for the whole telling 2006-04-13 19:43:21 Rhyddereh: he wasn't bothered it was an exact copy of a published puzzle? 2006-04-13 19:43:46 M:Kaotika: I'll back Deeva up here, when I say that this is entirely impersonal, and nothing to do with CardinalTarod as a person, a rival, or even specifically him. I'm a good friend of both Deeva and CT, and I've been involved extensively in the discussion on both sides. Both people, from my experience, are extremely admirable. The statistics on some of CT's stuff raises issues, yes, but I'd rather not get involved in a witchhunt. We know that there are mecanisms in T3 to reduce gaming, let's just sit tight... 2006-04-13 19:44:34 Rhyddereh: And that attitude is what I cannot agree with unfort. 2006-04-13 19:44:41 M:BryceCicada: I think that because he has helped so many other people that without him even asking, they help him in whatever way they can. 2006-04-13 19:44:49 Rhyddereh: Leaders should stand for what they believe in. 2006-04-13 19:44:54 F:Jezebella: so that means he's gaming? could it possibly be he has many many friends? he does good puzzles? could that be it? 2006-04-13 19:45:06 they ARENT helping him by gaming his scores through the roof, bryce, thats my point 2006-04-13 19:45:17 jez, heres the worst part... 2006-04-13 19:45:31 he DOES good puzzles, at least half the time, in my personal opinion 2006-04-13 19:45:37 i thought his pathmaker was very good 2006-04-13 19:45:53 but many people who DONT have tons of friends also make great puzzles 2006-04-13 19:46:00 F:Jezebella: exactly Bryce 2006-04-13 19:46:05 why should they be denied a pass? 2006-04-13 19:46:11 its thought, not leadership 2006-04-13 19:46:11 and the TOI is blatantly stolen 2006-04-13 19:46:45 M:Kaotika: So what? To pay devil's advocate.. It's not about original design, it's about how much fun it is to play. 2006-04-13 19:46:48 Deeva: i took an early stand against gaming 2006-04-13 19:46:52 Deeva: i personally reset 3 puzzles 2006-04-13 19:47:02 Deeva: because the scores were GAMED, by people who like me 2006-04-13 19:47:09 Deeva: and i KNEW they were 2006-04-13 19:47:27 Deeva: and believe me, i raised HELL with the people who pushed those scores up 2006-04-13 19:47:28 Kao: so it's ok to be rewarded for someone else's work? if that's the attitude I am standing in a completely diff. egypt than I thought I was 2006-04-13 19:47:42 Deeva: a leader has a responsibility to make sure things are fair and right 2006-04-13 19:47:48 Deeva: or to at least try 2006-04-13 19:47:59 F:Jezebella: ok Deeva, I can understand that. I have 3 art tests here that haven't passed. I think they are good. Other's have pased over mine that aren't nearly as good. nothing I can do about it. A couple of those were gamed. It happens. 2006-04-13 19:48:09 Deeva: you ask me to stand next to someone who carried an anti-gaming petetion i WROTE 2006-04-13 19:48:26 Deeva: while his guildies stood around yelling at people for not voting monumental on his puzzles 2006-04-13 19:48:41 Deeva: and who was entirely unconcerned by that, when he was told 2006-04-13 19:48:45 Deeva: i cannot do this 2006-04-13 19:48:54 F:Jezebella: things will never truly be fair and equal. not possible unfortunately. 2006-04-13 19:48:54 Deeva: but it has NOTHING to do with where he was born 2006-04-13 19:49:09 M:Kaotika: Rhyddereh, I realised that some time ago. It's worrying, and it's a situation that I hope that we can avoid in T3. However, yes - that's where we are. 2006-04-13 19:49:10 Rhyddereh: by not standing against the act, by not setting a good example . . . you are not being a good leader and I will not stand next to someone like that. 2006-04-13 19:49:54 now that i've got you ALL pissed at me 2006-04-13 19:50:02 id just like to make sure its for the right reasons 2006-04-13 19:50:09 Kao: and just because it's ok for some . . . . does not mean I will stand idly by while it happens. 2006-04-13 19:50:24 i took a dive for kaayru in cartouche...im not biased against french players 2006-04-13 19:50:24 M:Kaotika: Indeed 2006-04-13 19:50:38 id prefer you hated my ass for the right reasons :P 2006-04-13 19:50:41 I don't really see why anyone has a problem with what Deeva and Rhyd are doing, there's no divine right for us to win this telling. Standing up for your principles should be applauded 2006-04-13 19:51:36 F:Jezebella: standing up for principles is a good thing, if there's proof for why you are standing up for it. 2006-04-13 19:51:46 Deeva: i still love me some kaayru, however 2006-04-13 19:51:46 Absolutly. 2006-04-13 19:51:56 Deeva: and yer all lucky i share :P 2006-04-13 19:53:05 on a side note, i'd like to razz rhyddereh.... 2006-04-13 19:53:15 takes a huge drama to get his butt back in the game for a few :P 2006-04-13 19:53:52 and who stirred up the drama? :P and what's 99% of the reason I wasn't in game? :P 2006-04-13 19:54:15 hey now, i was just making sure i get burned on the proper stake :P 2006-04-13 19:54:39 I just realized not voicing my discontent and standing up for it was not being a good leader, even if it meant pissing everyone off. 2006-04-13 19:55:19 you know whats gonna piss everyone off more? 2006-04-13 19:55:31 F:Jezebella: I don't see anyone pissed off. just people voicing their opinions. 2006-04-13 19:55:32 i just dropped a bomb, now i gotta log 2006-04-13 19:55:50 M:TheMazeEcho: Rhyd, the TOI you saw belonging to CT wasn't his design that was an exact copy of another published one 2006-04-13 19:55:52 aint that evil? 2006-04-13 19:56:19 maze, im sorry, thats incorrect 2006-04-13 19:56:31 i have to log, but it should be noted, i took screen caps 2006-04-13 19:56:39 M:TheMazeEcho: CT made his TOI available to his guildies, and some have used it with copies of published ones 2006-04-13 19:56:46 if its been reset since and given to another, whatevia 2006-04-13 19:56:54 F:Jezebella: unless disagreeing with you means we are pissed 2006-04-13 19:57:08 well technically it wasn't of course it was the level designer for Rush hour 2006-04-13 19:57:09 nah, but believe me, some are, lol 2006-04-13 19:57:26 right, those people aren't talking ;) 2006-04-13 19:57:48 F:Jezebella: I am, I'm not afraid to tell you what I think. :) 2006-04-13 19:58:05 thank god, or this telling would get boring as hell, no? 2006-04-13 19:58:33 i bid egypt goodbye, my education is calling 2006-04-13 19:58:44 Bye Deeva :) 2006-04-13 19:59:09 Cya Deeva 2006-04-13 20:00:25 kaayru: And sorry if I haven't posted all mesages... discussion was too fast, and mesages off topic lol 2006-04-13 20:00:53 F:Jezebella: ty for posting kaa. 2006-04-13 20:56:31 M:CardinalTarod: On request of Kaa, and with a lot of reluctancy, I'm going to repeat here what he knows. 2006-04-13 20:57:16 M:CardinalTarod: It seems that no matter what I do or say, some people what to interpret it the worst way. 2006-04-13 20:58:08 M:CardinalTarod: There have been accusations of all sort, none proven - for all were false. 2006-04-13 20:59:45 M:CardinalTarod: It's the first and last time I will answer to these. Despite some, like Rhyd, think me saying nothing proves I'm "guilty", I strongly disagree 2006-04-13 20:59:53 M:CardinalTarod: In the place I leave, you are consider innocent unless proven the contrary. 2006-04-13 21:00:17 M:CardinalTarod: live* sorry 2006-04-13 21:01:08 M:CardinalTarod: You can't start accusations based on nothing and let people have to prove their innocence. 2006-04-13 21:01:21 M:CardinalTarod: I've heard all and nothing about my puzzles and artworks, or the way I envision leadership. 2006-04-13 21:02:16 M:CardinalTarod: First it was my Pathmaker (and the info was false for the one that was question is one of my many attempts that was too poor too pass and actually never did it) 2006-04-13 21:03:19 M:CardinalTarod: Then it was my ToI being too weak to pass (Deeva's opinion is in her view more valuable than others who played it and liked it, like Pharaoh) 2006-04-13 21:04:30 M:CardinalTarod: Now I hear that I put myslef before the others, which is pretty funny considering that 90% of my game time I spent it helping others, doing wines and beer for banquets, festivals, parties, etc ... I'm known for never refusing to help. 2006-04-13 21:05:03 M:CardinalTarod: Or that I copied my design - which is ridiculously false. 2006-04-13 21:07:05 M:CardinalTarod: I'm really sad and sick of all this crap and lies. Zarrehp ran into the same problem, and almost left atitd. For me, it was too much, I'm definitely out. 2006-04-13 21:07:21 M:XsSPL: CT taught me acro yesterday thanks for the dexterity point CT! 2006-04-13 21:07:50 M:Toba: I'm glad you came back to speak Cardinal :) 2006-04-13 21:08:11 M:CardinalTarod: I'm just staying here to give a last help to Kaa, but now I know I definitely won't be part of T3. 2006-04-13 21:08:33 M:kaayru: Thanks for stopping these rumors CT, and you know how I'm sad to see you quit the game cause of that. 2006-04-13 21:08:41 M:CardinalTarod: There are a lot of people I will miss a lot, and hope to keep in touch with by other means. 2006-04-13 21:09:18 M:CardinalTarod: Oh, one last word about yet-another-evil-thing I did : advertise the test of the reborn. 2006-04-13 21:10:02 M:CardinalTarod: I logged in about ten minutes and dropped a line in a couple of guild chats sying that I was supporting this test. Once. 2006-04-13 21:10:26 M:CardinalTarod: And all of a sudden, it turned out that I totally perverted the poll. 2006-04-13 21:11:13 M:CardinalTarod: I will just say that if people think that the voters are just brainless idiots that don't have their own advice and do what I say, it's giving very very very small credit to your fellow egyptians. 2006-04-13 21:12:26 F:CrystalEagle: you will be missed CT :( 2006-04-13 21:12:31 M:CardinalTarod: No matter what I say, or do, for some it will always be terrible. I'm sad it's that way, for I don't even know what I did to earn that. 2006-04-13 21:12:39 M:BryceCicada: Egypt will never be the same without you, CardinalHoney. 2006-04-13 21:14:09 M:TheMazeEcho: I can't think what T3 will be without you, CT... :(( 2006-04-13 21:15:16 Toba: Good to see you again Cardinal, I hope you will chage your mind and come back next tale 2006-04-13 21:15:43 change* 2006-04-13 21:17:55 F:CrystalEagle: its amazing what the gift of gab can do to others 2006-04-13 21:18:21 F:CrystalEagle: :( 2006-04-13 21:19:21 F:CrystalEagle: sometimes it a blesing and then next thing it can hurt 2006-04-13 21:23:18 F:CrystalEagle: and you dont have to see blood to know there is pain 2006-04-13 21:24:14 F:Alizia: helllo all :) 2006-04-13 21:24:40 F:CrystalEagle: Hi Alzia 2006-04-13 21:26:03 Toba: One thing I've always like about Egypt is it's people and I cannot believe that these same good, caring and wonderful people that I know would allow rumors and suspicion to destroy someone like that. What I'm seeing here is no better then the Salem Which Trails or Senator McCarthy 2006-04-13 21:26:32 M:Zatarg: I agree 2006-04-13 21:26:54 F:CrystalEagle: agree 2006-04-13 21:26:58 there is no solid prrof that Cardinal has done anything wrong, just hearsay 2006-04-13 21:27:11 proof even 2006-04-13 21:28:19 M:FransGeerts: sorry 2 hear that CT is leaving.. 2006-04-13 21:28:34 M:FransGeerts: can only confirm that he's done a whole lot for others 2006-04-13 21:29:07 M:FransGeerts: hate 2 loose another friend here because of ppl acusing others 2006-04-13 21:29:12 M:Zatarg: i must say im apauled at the people who have driven this 2006-04-13 21:29:43 F:Miralda: CT is such a great person to Egypt!! 2006-04-13 21:30:38 M:Kaotika: CT's like a fluffy pet to me, with a giant obelisk. 2006-04-13 21:30:50 And I questions Deeva's motivations in this matter, she has inflamed this issue from a hill to a mountain. She has been Cardinal's political rival for a long time and it is not right for her to judge and persecute Cardinal. I believe she is simply trying to play dirty politics, there is enough of that in RL, leave it out of this game. 2006-04-13 21:31:18 M:FransGeerts: hope u reconsider CT.. would realy miss u 2006-04-13 21:31:18 F:Miralda: CT, we love you!!:) 2006-04-13 21:31:33 F:ellorin: I'm appalled at the public lynching that goes on here. It's way too personal and i thought we were all here to help each other. And well said Toba 2006-04-13 21:31:58 M:Kaotika: Toba, that's not the case. Deeva's passionate about the game, but this isn't a personal issues. It's her taking a stand against all sorts of issues in the game. 2006-04-13 21:32:03 Thank you Allorin 2006-04-13 21:32:08 err Ellorin 2006-04-13 21:32:39 F:Alizia: I hope CT will read that 2006-04-13 21:32:41 It's not a fair place for her to take Kao 2006-04-13 21:33:04 M:FransGeerts: agrees with ellorin.. we should leave personal issues at home 2006-04-13 21:33:24 I must be off Egpyt, I can only say please don't let this stop you from helping others to win this game. 2006-04-13 21:33:41 Please, let's work togather 2006-04-13 21:34:00 That is what this game is about 2006-04-13 21:34:20 Have a good day everyone 2006-04-13 21:34:27 M:Kaotika: I'm not getting involved any further than that - I have the utmost respect for Deeva and CT - they're both magnificent people. I think that the vast majority - of all the crap we're seeing - is a result of the stagnation that has plagued T2 increasingly for months now. The close-minded communities, the fear of change and the unconventional, have contributed to a worryingly closed and incestuous community :( 2006-04-13 21:35:40 F:CrystalEagle: the game is not about who has what to me ita about helping others and working as a group, I dont win unless I accomplish what I want to and that is up to me to be a winner not at someone elses expence 2006-04-13 21:37:46 F:Alizia: I 'm a a very old woman and my first game !! woahh it'swas a very long time ago .I was very plesead ti find a very "clean" game , but your are like the others !! Carninal Tod and Kaa , i will be always tour supporters 2006-04-13 21:46:47 Thurgret: looks around 2006-04-13 21:46:50 Thurgret: hmmmm 2006-04-13 21:47:12 Thurgret: I don't see any blood on the ground here :9 2006-04-13 21:47:14 Thurgret: :( 2006-04-13 21:47:19 Thurgret: bummer 2006-04-13 21:47:25 Thurgret: well maybe next time :) 2006-04-13 21:49:35 F:CrystalEagle: what does that mean? 2006-04-13 21:49:36 F:Esme: thinks Thur is volunteering his own blood it sounds like ;p 2006-04-13 21:57:06 M:Thurgret: well if blood is needed I could take 1 for the team :) 2006-04-13 22:01:34 M:FransGeerts: with loosing CT we may not b bleeding physicaly.. but we loose someone who can and will help everyone a lot 2006-04-13 22:01:50 M:FransGeerts: doing all kinds of stuff for the community... so i think we're bleeding hard atm 2006-04-13 22:04:31 F:CrystalEagle: yup 2006-04-13 22:07:28 M:Thurgret: the thing is I have seen some of the analysis of why some of these charges of gaming have come up and looking at it statistically there is a strong case whch can be made. because of the nature of this game you could never prove a lot of things in this game so some will believe the gaming charge and be mad about it well others will see there is a case there but not imvolve themselves in the discussion 2006-04-13 22:08:51 M:Thurgret: in this game you have to live with how you do what you do and how you do it and the old you hurt my feelings I'm going to quit doesn't really move me all that much (shrug) 2006-04-13 22:11:06 F:Calixes: not to mention that participating in Leadership much basically paints a target on your back. it would be a little naive to expect no harsh words coming your way. 2006-04-13 22:12:42 M:Karkajouh: but when this arrow target is so full of arrows, it may fall 2006-04-13 22:12:45 M:Thurgret: that is a valid point also :) 2006-04-13 22:14:31 F:Calixes: it's sad, Kar, but i have a hard time getting upset about Leadership problems. i *really* dislike the discipline. 2006-04-13 22:14:59 F:Esme: so basically a leadership oracle is not a leader but a pincushion ;p 2006-04-13 22:15:44 F:Calixes: well, s/he can certainly expect to be, yeah. =/ 2006-04-13 22:16:48 M:Zatarg: any oracle could be expected to be 2006-04-13 22:16:48 M:Zatarg: ill just point out, i havent seen anyone condem asheara for gamming, when you can hardly prove other cases (not saying she did) 2006-04-13 22:17:24 F:Esme: the thing is I believe leadership should be about helping people but then I think everything is about that so ;p 2006-04-13 22:18:26 F:Esme: should be leading projects and giving hope and building community ;p 2006-04-13 22:19:03 F:Esme: not about just passing tests at others expense :S 2006-04-13 22:19:03 F:Calixes: i agree, Esme. but it's very far removed from that in reality...most of the tests, anyhow. that's why i dislike the discipline so much. it's geared to create ugliness, and we produce it in spades. 2006-04-13 22:19:11 M:Yendor: I've said it before, but to me leadership is founding The Goods or managing an aqueduct line. Not about backstabbing your way through some tests 2006-04-13 22:19:27 M:Zatarg: and the other disciplines are different how? 2006-04-13 22:19:57 F:Esme: I was hoping that the new test we accepted would lead us back that way..toward community service and projects instead of self promotion and crafty self service 2006-04-13 22:20:03 F:Esme: agreed Yendor 2006-04-13 22:21:10 M:Zatarg: how many people can honestly say they dont think Pharaoh knew someone would complain 2006-04-13 22:21:11 F:Calixes: most of the tests in the other disciplines are such that you don't have to fight other folks much to progress. it's possible to participate without having to ream other folks to progress. 2006-04-13 22:21:43 M:Zatarg: no it isnt, if you pass everone else doesnt 2006-04-13 22:23:01 M:Zatarg: *someone 2006-04-13 22:23:01 F:Calixes: i don't know why you'd ask that, Z...it seems pretty clear that the Leadership tests are designed to foment trouble directly. we all know Pharaoh likes stepping on the antbed. 2006-04-13 22:23:04 F:Esme: worship is often very much help yourselves but help others at the same time 2006-04-13 22:23:49 F:Calixes: yes, Esme. i quite like Worship for that. 2006-04-13 22:23:51 M:Zatarg: and do you honestly think Pharaoh didnt make it so someone looses out in all disciplines? 2006-04-13 22:23:54 M:Zatarg: but holding a festival, can only be done when someone isnt on 2006-04-13 22:23:59 M:Zatarg: and holy shrine is weekly also 2006-04-13 22:26:16 F:Calixes: you've got a more cynical view than i do, Z, and that's saying a bunch. i'm not really feeling like digging in details today. =) 2006-04-13 22:27:31 M:Zatarg: cynical maybe, but i feel no need to complain about any of the disciplines themselves :) 2006-04-13 22:29:13 F:Calixes: have fun, Z. =) 2006-04-13 22:29:16 M:FransGeerts: like 2 make one thing sure.. i'm not against Deeva.. i just don't like loosing someone like CT 2006-04-13 22:29:40 M:Thurgret: the old saying 'if you cann't take the heat get out of the kitchen' thing ? ;) 2006-04-13 22:29:42 M:Zatarg: i feel the same way Frans 2006-04-13 22:31:43 M:Zatarg: yes Thurgret :) 2006-04-13 22:33:44 F:Esme: I just dont think leadership should be just about taking heat ...that would be the discipline of Firemen maybe but not leadership ;p There ought to be some leading people ..together..not just to serve you ;p 2006-04-13 22:34:51 M:Zatarg: Ask Pharaoh if we can replace leadership with Firemen hehe 2006-04-13 22:34:52 M:FaceAnkh: the Disciplines are what we make them - not just how we play what's given to use, but also and especially with the monuments, what we choose to evolve them into 2006-04-13 22:35:39 M:Zatarg: *nods* 2006-04-13 22:38:36 F:Esme: It's just that the disciplines really have their own purposes and feel also and really none of them should be just about tests but that goal of creating a more perfect society imho 2006-04-13 22:39:09 M:Zatarg: i agree 2006-04-13 22:41:18 M:Orashin: So...hate to play the cynic, but how are you going to measure that in the nice, compact form of a test that can be passed or not? 2006-04-13 22:42:29 M:Yendor: Perhaps one of the leadership tests can be to get a new law passed? 2006-04-13 22:42:34 M:Yendor: Or, rename the current discipline "politics" isntead of "leadership" 2006-04-13 22:43:38 M:Zatarg: too easy 2006-04-13 22:43:40 F:Calixes: with the inception of the new discipline, changing the name doesn't seem as needful...though i agree it's become something of a misnomer. =) 2006-04-13 22:43:44 F:Esme: with simple criteria really...questions such as does this test promote or diminish the feeling of community for Egypt? Does it create a positive impact or negative impact for a perfect society? 2006-04-13 22:44:21 M:Orashin: Politics would be more descriptive of what it is, yes, but that's typically what leadership devolves into in most forms involving large number of people. 2006-04-13 22:44:23 M:Zatarg: all tests will stop someone else from passing them though 2006-04-13 22:46:01 M:Orashin: Pretty simple Esme, though it does sound vague enough that we're going to be asking "Hrm, do I vote exceptional or monumental on this public work?" And, well, you've all talked about art and thought already. 2006-04-13 22:46:04 F:Esme: You have to look at what is the purpose of this test? to promote one person? or does this test benefit a larger group of people in its creation and passing? 2006-04-13 22:47:13 F:Esme: Does it lead to a benefit for alot of people? Or is it just a test pass for someones ego? (including DP test) 2006-04-13 22:47:14 M:FaceAnkh: Orashin: this is digging up the past a bit, but the runner up test for T1 Leadership (final choice was host) was http://wiki.atitd.net/tale1/Users/FaceAnkh/Corvee 2006-04-13 22:51:20 M:FaceAnkh: the idea of that test was to influence the community towards a gentler form of Leadership (Harmony? ;) ) and to reward people that did "good works" 2006-04-13 22:51:22 M:Orashin: Still going to have to be cynical...sounds rather easy to devolve into a popularity contest. 2006-04-13 22:54:01 M:FaceAnkh: it's probably not possible to separate popularity from Leadership (the Discipline), when it comes down to it 2006-04-13 22:55:43 M:Orashin: Bingo. Besides, a good part of leadership IS popularity. People have to like you enough to be able to put their trust in you to lead a project. 2006-04-13 22:56:09 F:Esme: well it takes people liking and trusting you to follow you yes. But still you should have some responsiblity about you where you are leading them...even tho sometimes the lines get hard. 2006-04-13 22:56:10 M:Zatarg: yup 2006-04-13 22:57:21 F:Esme: therefore a good leadership test might have elements of popularity required in their test pass yes but they should also lead people someWHERE good ...not just to their own test pass 2006-04-13 22:59:56 M:Orashin: Well, there are many who would argue that Hitler was a good leader. I hate to bust that one out since the first person to play the Hitler card automatically loses the game, but well, I'm not sure leadership is something that's necessarily attached to something good. 2006-04-13 23:00:47 F:Esme: but it could be and would be a better discipline if it were 2006-04-13 23:01:51 F:Esme: we could "lead" it to be. We really can affect the way this game progresses from tale to tale 2006-04-13 23:03:00 M:Orashin: It could be, but that'll involve player mentality more than trying to foolproof a test, trying to prevent it from devolving into a popularity contest. 2006-04-13 23:04:59 M:FaceAnkh: the design of the tests (and, more so, of the game) does influence player mentality though - I heard someone on a guild channel an hour or so ago saying how it was so much easier to be "lawful" than "chaotic" here 2006-04-13 23:05:16 M:FaceAnkh: what we make of the game and in the game really does affect the way it's played 2006-04-13 23:05:18 M:Orashin: People can honest-to-god give their mentorship shrines to people who honestly helped them. People could elect Demi-Pharaohs who would not use the ban. People could set up bureaucracies where people who contribute most to society are given higher ranks. And so on and so forth. 2006-04-13 23:06:38 F:Esme: The test chosen for a monument reflects the cummulative viewpoint of a discipline . We should choose carefully what we want to say to the next generation. In a land with no children other than adult grandchildren, the monument tests are our legacy. 2006-04-13 23:09:45 M:Thurgret: I think 2 tests of each disipline should be absurely simple so that those who are willing to help in the end game but who are not into tests can comtribute :) 2006-04-13 23:10:25 M:Thurgret: that would eb a good legacy 2006-04-13 23:10:26 M:Orashin: Hard to disagree with that. But if that's in reference to the test ultimately selected, I'm not sure what's so wrong with the test in that it was democratically selected among leadership followers. 2006-04-13 23:13:02 F:Esme: panics and runs around because she agreed with Thurgret on that one ! ;p 2006-04-13 23:13:02 M:Thurgret: nope it isn't I always support the majority when the monument test is selceted becasue those that are interested in doing tests are the 1's that work on making the proposals for the new tests and thats fine with me :) 2006-04-13 23:14:18 M:Thurgret: I just think there should be a teir or degree of difficulty which should be looked at and build into the test regime 2006-04-13 23:16:18 M:Thurgret: thier should be 1 or 2 unlimited pass tests in each disipline 2006-04-13 23:21:22 F:Esme: actually agrees :) 2006-04-13 23:23:29 M:Thurgret: gee Esme you sound surprised :) 2006-04-13 23:24:18 F:Esme: yeah lol 2006-04-13 23:25:48 M:Hasani: Hello Egypt. The Architecture Monument is going up in LN!! Come on out to 3060, -4044 in LN to join the monument. All needed monument materials have already been gathered. We need and welcome all ranks of Arch folks. All you need to do is come join and add your name to the monument. We also have a guild for discussing Architecture test ideas. You don't have to be a student of Arch to join the guild and discuss the proposed tests. That GH is located in RSO at 2310, 2287. So trot out to LN to join the monument and visit RSO to join the Arch Test Discussion Forum. We look forward to seeing you! 2006-04-13 23:25:53 M:Balthazarr: Look at art and thought... they are full of limited pass tests and they are in bad shape 2006-04-13 23:26:54 M:Balthazarr: on the other hand I would like to see point thresehold for some tests, tjose one tith pilgrimages and a handfull of sacs vigils really bother me, when a test becomes as cheapened as that 2006-04-13 23:32:06 M:Thurgret: gee I get such a warm fuzzy feeling from so many people agreeing with me :) 2006-04-13 23:33:10 M:Balthazarr: but like 2100 points minimum for vigils and 700 for pilgrimages whould not be too much to ask for 2006-04-13 23:42:42 M:FransGeerts: Leadership is about making the right descision even when all other's oppose... and ppl tell uyou u were right afterwards...takes a strong persone 2 do so 2006-04-14 01:01:43 JemGirl: BODY MONUMENT: COME APPLY IF YOUR A BODY PERSON 2006-04-14 01:01:55 JemGirl: We need 27 more students to build this Monument 2006-04-14 01:02:33 JemGirl: Please come up us bring rise to our new body test of Osyter Catcher where we will be able to swim 2006-04-14 01:14:01 F:Anankha: Coords for the body monument, please :) 2006-04-14 01:14:42 F:JemGirl: 1346 715 sorry guys 2006-04-14 01:15:47 F:JemGirl: Also Body Monument build has been cancelled till Sunday April 23rd at 2pm edt now since we need more people